The State of the Dead!!!

[BobRyan]

You are right when you say that God wants us to serve him out of love, but I have to disagree with you on Hell.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can their punishment end, when it is eternal. I don't believe that God likes it, and this is why he sent his son, so that we those who would except him would be spared from his wrath. God is the God of mercy, but he is also the God of justice.

No need to do much guessing about the longevity of eternal fire or eternal punishment... we have it for is to see in the plain light of day.

Jude 7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[BobRyan]

I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"

such an extreme belief would need an actual Bible text for it. Not just "sounds good to me but not to you" kind of shifting sand.

ok, you are in the no ghost camp. But please, dont base it in sola scriptura nonsense by saying the Lord didnt explicitly say so.

Mark 7:6-13 Christ points to the error of the Jews where their tradition contradicted scripture.

The claim that "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints" is "off the charts" if all it has to support it - is the shifting sand of "sounds about right to me but not to folks that see that sort of thing as odd"

Ah, now all the SS people have another arrow in the quiver, it doesnt make sense to me so we dont need bible text

on the contrary - it is "that is a pretty odd claim - lets see if the Bible supports or condemns it"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
The claim that "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints" is "off the charts" if all it has to support it - is the shifting sand of "sounds about right to me but not to folks that see that sort of thing as odd"

I guess the Gospel writers (3 of them) were odd.

IT is "odd" that you are taking Gospel accounts where "the writer" tells us most specifically that it is NOT a ghost -- to claim that the Bible writer is telling us it WAS a ghost??

seriously?

 

[All4Christ]

...

 

[dqhall]

The whole point of the lake of fire, is to bring people to repentance, which is why we have this imagery in scripture.

Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

The concept of sackcloth and ashes, is right through scripture. To be reduced to ashes, is for God's fiery judgements to have brought you to complete repentance. To put on sackcloth, is to realise that your good works are worthless, and are as filthy rags in God's nostrils. Not to mention, why would God's elect be kings and priests, if they had no one to rule over or minister to?

Biblical writers had varying levels of skill. Only one writer described a lake of fire. It is reminiscent of a lava flow.

Peter wrote the earth and universe will end with the elements dissolving in intense heat (2 Peter 3:10). Unless God creates a new universe, mankind will not endure beyond such an event.

A seed has one type of body. When it germinates, it starts to grow beyond what it was as a seed. From little acorns mighty oaks did sprout. In the resurrection life will be different.

 

[JacksBratt]

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[BrotherD]

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No, I tried to let the scriptures speak for themselves that is why i put little headers above to kind of show where i was heading. It was mainly to show that the dead are sleep and hell isn't a doctrine from God. Spiritualism is also becoming prevalent now a days, alot of Christian and non-Christians believe in it. It also means to me we can live bodly proclaiming the truth and know that death is just a nap, so no matter the persecution we go through we will have the victory.

 

[JacksBratt]

I understand your position. Two people that I know well have told me of their relatives (a brother and a grandmother) having witnessed ghosts of dead loved ones. Hence, I am more open to the subject.

I would be cautious of "ghosts" of past loved ones. Satan is always out to deceive. I don't know of any place in scripture that indicates that a dead loved one can come back and warn someone of anything.

Demons have no bodies. They have been around for ever, they know what goes on as they are outside of time.. They can tell you truth until the cows come home and throw in lies, once they have you fooled.

Did Christ tell His disciples "There are no such thing as ghost's" When they thought He was a ghost walking on the water?

I believe full well that there are entities that can interact with our dimension... some are righteous, some are evil.... It is easy to discern.... just pray in the name of Christ to have them leave if they are not His messenger.... they will have to go.

 

[JacksBratt]

No, I tried to let the scriptures speak for themselves that is why i put little headers above to kind of show where i was heading. It was mainly to show that the dead are sleep and hell isn't a doctrine from God. Spiritualism is also becoming prevalent now a days, alot of Christian and non-Christians believe in it. It also means to me we can live bodly proclaiming the truth and know that death is just a nap, so no matter the persecution we go through we will have the victory.

OK, just.. that it really helps to understand what your view is when you add something of your own to it...

Is it not a forum rule too? Not that I think it's worthy of reporting.. just would be more clear as to the intent of your thread.

 

[BrotherD]

OK, just.. that it really helps to understand what your view is when you add something of your own to it...

Is it not a forum rule too? Not that I think it's worthy of reporting.. just would be more clear as to the intent of your thread.

What do you mean by add something of my own to it?

 

[JacksBratt]

What do you mean by add something of my own to it?

A comment as to why you are posting scripture and what it is saying to you.. The concept that you are using it to support. Why it supports a certain view you have... that sort of thing.

 

[BobRyan]

I understand your position. Two people that I know well have told me of their relatives (a brother and a grandmother) having witnessed ghosts of dead loved ones. Hence, I am more open to the subject.

My wife's relatives were deeply into the spirit medium business at one time before she was born and witnessed a lot of strange ghosts-of-the-dead stuff somewhat like the spirit medium in 1 Sam 28 who was able to "conjure up" by "the familiar spirit" whomever you may wish to have "brought up".

The Bible condemns that sort of thing as 1 Sam 28 also states. The same reason Adam and Eve were told not to go near the tree of knowledge of good and evil -- because the evil one was there.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It was mainly to show that the dead are sleep and hell isn't a doctrine from God. .

But would you agree that the fiery hell of Matt 10:28 in the post quoted above and the lake of fire and brimstone in Rev 20 ... are real, literal, etc? The just reward given to the wicked?

 

[JacksBratt]

Biblical writers had varying levels of skill. Only one writer described a lake of fire. It is reminiscent of a lava flow.

Peter wrote the earth and universe will end with the elements dissolving in intense heat (2 Peter 3:10). Unless God creates a new universe, mankind will not endure beyond such an event.

A seed has one type of body. When it germinates, it starts to grow beyond what it was as a seed. From little acorns mighty oaks did sprout. In the resurrection life will be different.

Where was the "rich" man in the story of Lazarus?

 

[BrotherD]

But would you agree that the fiery hell of Matt 10:28 in the post quoted above and the lake of fire and brimstone in Rev 20 ... are real, literal, etc? The just reward given to the wicked?

I believe eternal fire is not something that would be forever and forever. Look at Jude 1:7 it mentions Sodom and Gomorrah suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Now we know Sodom and Gomorrah isn't still buring as of this day but is currently sitting in ashes.

2 Peter 2:6 KJV — And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

God says in:
Malachi 4:1,3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Here he says the wicked shall be as ashes under the soul of our feet. That means nothing is left we couldn't step on somethibg still burning.

I do believe the more you know the more you burn and the less you know the less you burn as stated in Luke 12:42-48:

Pay attention to:
Luke 12:47 KJV — And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 KJV — But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Christ is clear when he say the wages of sin is death. I believe in the Judge of all the earth and that the wicked will be punished according to the light they have been given and the deeds done in the body.

 

[zelosravioli]

As a 'Conditionalist' I too agree that eternal life is a condition of belief, without salvation you will be punished after a judgment and die a second or spiritual death - annihilation. In other words the 'eternal' (aionios) punishment (kolasis) spoken of in Matt 25 (see Daniel 12:2), is death itself).

 

[dqhall]

Where was the "rich" man in the story of Lazarus?

He may have been suffering on earth; a living hell for some.

 

[Lovetrusion]

I see a lot of intellectualism, a lot of you are using to understand the Lord. We cannot get to understand or claim all knowledge of God and His things if we do not petition Him, so the Holy Spirit can reveal all to us. By the Holy Spirit, I came to understand that our Lord keeps our spirit and truly I tell you ghosts do not exist. If that were the case the God has no control at all, and what is stopping the Satan and his devils from taking/tricking people's soul to hell in the spirit world. Basically, somewhere along the lines of us dying and the day of judgement there has to be a way God shows his mercy and justice as he is sovereign.

On hell - a lot of people including Christians actually believe eternal hell is fake news. If anything the Devil has done a good job making sure people are deceived of that truth. In fact the deceit has even liquefied the eternal afterlife repercussions of our lives lived - into something that morphs the after life and reincarnation which is part of the New Age stuff.

So all I am saying is you cannot interpret the Word of God by your own mind because as humans we know absolutely nothing. I wish people new how God views our wisdom and intellect; one truly wouldn't saying whatever they put together with so much conviction.

I also see that a lot of the times we truly do not understand or know the blasphemies we are saying before the Lord.

Then the question of the Lake of Fire, the Lord guarantees for eternity those that are unrepentant, unbeliever, idolaters, etc. Because the Lord lives in the eternal and his justice and mercy and wrath shall also be eternal. When you hear the Lord say Satan shall be thrown in the bottomless pit - think eternal deep not 5 KM deep.

All I have said cannot be sought through intellectual scrutiny foremost but through your interaction with the Holy Spirit - pray for these things for they are mysteries and so you should ask Him, for the Lord is there to listen.

 

[DavidPT]

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

My position has been the following for the longest time now. It seems to me that the tree of life is somehow connected with living for forever, otherwise why would anyone even need to eat of it in the new heavens and new earth? So it seems to me that the contiunual eating of it allows a person to continue living without ever dying. Assuming that might be the case, and assuming those cast into the LOF live forever in order to be tormented forever, does this mean they too will have access to the tree of life in order to continue living forever so that they can be tormented without end? I wouldn't think so, but that's me.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The context involves the eternal age. In that age there are no end to days nor months, etc, therefore one should take verse 2---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month--to be meaning for forever.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Here is yet another mention of the tree of life. Obviously those cast into the LOF won't be able to enter through the gates of the city, thus, they obviously will have no right to the tree of life. So, once again, what is helping them to continue living forever, assuming eternal conscience torment, since it can't be the tree of life helping them to achieve that?

 

[BrotherD]

My position has been the following for the longest time now. It seems to me that the tree of life is somehow connected with living for forever, otherwise why would anyone even need to eat of it in the new heavens and new earth? So it seems to me that the contiunual eating of it allows a person to continue living without ever dying. Assuming that might be the case, and assuming those cast into the LOF live forever in order to be tormented forever, does this mean they too will have access to the tree of life in order to continue living forever so that they can be tormented without end? I wouldn't think so, but that's me.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The context involves the eternal age. In that age there are no end to days nor months, etc, therefore one should take verse 2---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month--to be meaning for forever.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Here is yet another mention of the tree of life. Obviously those cast into the LOF won't be able to enter through the gates of the city, thus, they obviously will have no right to the tree of life. So, once again, what is helping them to continue living forever, assuming eternal conscience torment, since it can't be the tree of life helping them to achieve that?

You are correct brother, the scriptures are plain for anyone to see them and say ok i get it. The tree of life being taken away is the reason why Adam and Eve didn't live forever.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The reward for a righteous and holy life in Christ is the right to live forever.