How Free will establishes FAITH... but what would I know.....

[Daniel9v9]

The will is not the instrument of conversion, but the object of conversion. That is, God makes willing out of the unwilling. It's written that we are dead in sin, and so damnation is entirely from man, but salvation is entirely from God - this is apprehended through faith and not reason.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Thank you for expressing your opinion on this topic.

But what about the situation in a person's life being altered so that what they might have done a year or two previously is no longer what they want to do.

For example... former drug addict Todd White felt responsibility to at least try to improve his life due to the fact that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus gave him a wife and a daughter.

If it were not for his wife and daughter he might never have gone to Teen Challenge for several weeks? Although he did not complete Teen Challenge it is obvious that he began to encounter Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father there.

So God changes the circumstances in which people live in order to lead them in the general direction of repentance.

I believe BBAS is saying that all men always choose evil because that's what Romans 3 tells us.

The concept of everyone deserving an equal chance at knowing Christ is not in scripture. God is fair, which means according to his law and perfection, all have sinned and the punishment is death. Christ died to save some through mercy, which is unfair. It is not fair that he saved any of us! People say that a loving God couldn't allow some people to know him and others to perish without ever knowing the gospel, or even having a chance to reject it. This is untrue according to the scriptures. God doesn't owe anyone Grace.

This debate won't be solved because we can't understand the ways of God, however I know--for one--I never chose anything when Jesus reached down and saved my wretched soul. I was a monster and he had to rip the darkness out. There was no choice there for me. I was in the dark, he chose me. That was it! I am forever greatful, but if I died in my sin unsaved, GOD would still be GOD and he would still be good.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

The will is not the instrument of conversion, but the object of conversion. That is, God makes willing out of the unwilling. It's written that we are dead in sin, and so damnation is entirely from man, but salvation is entirely from God - this is apprehended through faith and not reason.

excellent statement! TRUE. I would add that God does not owe anyone salvation.

 

[Dave L]

I am just a janitor at a school who reads a lot but I am no expert on such questions from any recognized angle?????


How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)




You will certainly want to see the opening post in that discussion which can be viewed here:

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)



Personally .... I rather like a historical Elijah who was capable of giving in to fear and running away to Mt. Horeb even though that sure seemed to NOT be where G-d wanted Elijah to be at the time that G-d asked him two times.....
"What doest thou here Elijah?"

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

Free will before salvation is sinful. It places your trust in the arm of the flesh. Having faith in your faith instead of faith in Christ. It is legalism and law keeping, not grace. It converts the gospel into law and grace into works. Law cannot save.

Truly Free Will is a result of being born again. We were slaves to sin and now freely choose the things of the Spirit. Why? because faith is a fruit of the Spirit we now base all our choices on.

 

[DennisTate]

Free will before salvation is sinful. It places your trust in the arm of the flesh. Having faith in your faith instead of faith in Christ. It is legalism and law keeping, not grace. It converts the gospel into law and grace into works. Law cannot save.

Truly Free Will is a result of being born again. We were slaves to sin and now freely choose the things of the Spirit. Why? because faith is a fruit of the Spirit we now base all our choices on.

But..... it can also be used to show us our own powerlessness to obey the words of Messiah Yeshua- Jesus fully........

We can notice that our attempts at obeying are a joke in comparison to what we know would be possible if were were filled with the Holy Spirit so.......
we learn to lift our voices for understanding and cry aloud for wisdom and for more and more and more of the Holy Spirit and the Love of God shed in our hearts........ so that we can truly have our lives transformed.

 

[Dave L]

But..... it can also be used to show us our own powerlessness to obey the words of Messiah Yeshua- Jesus fully........

We can notice that our attempts at obeying are a joke in comparison to what we know would be possible if were were filled with the Holy Spirit so.......
we learn to lift our voices for understanding and cry aloud for wisdom and for more and more and more of the Holy Spirit and the Love of God shed in our hearts........ so that we can truly have our lives transformed.

Free will before salvation is sin, and blind to Christ. It will only choose idols as a work of the flesh and call them Jesus.

 

[Charlie24]

Free will before salvation is sinful. It places your trust in the arm of the flesh. Having faith in your faith instead of faith in Christ. It is legalism and law keeping, not grace. It converts the gospel into law and grace into works. Law cannot save.

Truly Free Will is a result of being born again. We were slaves to sin and now freely choose the things of the Spirit. Why? because faith is a fruit of the Spirit we now base all our choices on.

So when the Holy Spirit convicts the heart at the hearing of the gospel, we are not able to make sound judgement to accept or reject?

I'm guessing this must be the first stage that eventually leads to salvation?

At what point does salvation take place?

Or yet a better question. Paul said that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after we believe.

At what point in the process are we able to believe?

 

[Dave L]

So when the Holy Spirit convicts the heart at the hearing of the gospel, we are not able to make sound judgement to accept or reject?

I'm guessing this must be the first stage that eventually leads to salvation?

At what point does salvation take place?

Or yet a better question. Paul said that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after we believe.

At what point in the process are we able to believe?

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth. Until that happens the will can only choose sin.

 

[Ken Rank]

Can anything act contrary to its nature ?

Yes, it's called sin.

 

[Ken Rank]

I am not sure that "a christianity" without free will would actually be "a Christianity".

This was a good answer. Free will has ALWAYS been part of God's intent, and God does not change. At Sinai He told Israel to choose between life and death, blessing and cursing... choose. And when Yeshua came he revealed that we have to choose to follow or not to follow. God isn't going to force anyone to follow Him because that then means He also created people to spend eternity without Him? How does that stand in harmony with character attributes like love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc.?

 

[dqhall]

I am not sure that "a christianity" without free will would actually be "a Christianity".

John 8:34 (WEB) Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Those who are not free are slaves of sin. Those who are free know Jesus.

 

[Ken Rank]

John 8:34 (WEB) Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Those who are not free are slaves of sin. Those who are free know Jesus.

That verse isn't dealing with free will... it is dealing with being free from sin. The wage of sin is death, and though we still might die (unless we are here when he returns) death has lost it's sting... thus we are free.

 

[DennisTate]

Free will before salvation is sin, and blind to Christ. It will only choose idols as a work of the flesh and call them Jesus.

All of us after seeking after Christ for four decades or more should see and hear Messiah Yeshua - Jesus much more clearly than we did in the years between when we were set apart and called........
and when we finally received the Holy Spirit .......
perhaps not quite as powerfully as Acts of the Apostles 2
but.... we do know that we received the Holy Spirit because we saw the fruits produced.

Lately I've been looking at the Kevin Zadai calling and at ten years of age Jesus appeared to him and told him to not smoke, don't date and don't drink......
and he obeyed this.

He actually repented and got baptized and received the Holy Spirit at a much greater level at nineteen years of age and he was not given his wife until he was about thirty two.

Between when he was ten to nineteen he did learn important things that laid a foundation for the rest of his life.

 

[DennisTate]

John 8:34 (WEB) Jesus answered them, "Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn't live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Those who are not free are slaves of sin. Those who are free know Jesus.

Over time we make choices and depending on what we feed our minds through our eyes we can decrease....... or increase the level of darkness still in us.

Matthew 6
verse 23
"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"


Luk 11:34

The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

When was the last time that we begged Messiah Yeshua - Jesus for MORE OF HIS HOLY SPRIT and Wisdom and understanding??????????

Jhn 16:24

Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

 

[Charlie24]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth. Until that happens the will can only choose sin.

Dave, the fruit of the Spirit is what comes after salvation. Surely you have studied this.

No fruit can be given to the unbeliever. Remember, the new birth is a free gift for those who choose to believe. Faith for believing comes from hearing the Word of God, as Paul said.

 

[Redwingfan9]

The weight of choosing ones salvation is too great for a totally depraved man to bare. The reality is that to believe in free will in salvation you must believe that there is some good in the heart of mankind and that is clearly not supported in scripture. Jer 17:9 and Matt 15:18-20 make that abundantly clear. A dead heart can only be made alive by God himself. Free will is a millstone around the neck of man, a terrible heresy.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, the fruit of the Spirit is what comes after salvation. Surely you have studied this.

No fruit can be given to the unbeliever. Remember, the new birth is a free gift for those who choose to believe. Faith for believing comes from hearing the Word of God, as Paul said.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You are claiming the Holy Spirit is a fruit of the flesh, where human faith comes from.

 

[DennisTate]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth. Until that happens the will can only choose sin.

Paul was on a different page than this and gave credit to people who did not know Messiah Yeshua - Jesus yet at all.

He also said that somebody who does not yet know God from scriptures can learn from the second Word of God... .the creation.... that shows analogy after analogy after analogy to teach all of us........ all eight billion of us.

Rom 1:14
"I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise."

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

 

[Charlie24]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You are claiming the Holy Spirit is a fruit of the flesh, where human faith comes from.

When the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of sin, you are saying, if that person chooses Christ the result is "fruit of the flesh."

To be honest Dave, I don't think anyone can help you here. Only God can do that!

 

[Dave L]

When the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of sin, you are saying, if that person chooses Christ the result is "fruit of the flesh."

To be honest Dave, I don't think anyone can help you here. Only God can do that!

Blind people cannot see the cliff any more than the spiritually blind can see Christ.