BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[JSRG]

I know that the official SDA position is annihilationism, but I remember reading some of E.G. White's writings, the "Conflict of the Ages" series, IIRC, where she described people going to Hell. That's something that comes from cribbing from multiple sources. Yes, in case you're wondering, I was an SDA member for awhile - studied my way in...and then studied by way back out.

I recently heard an ex-SDA say that that teaching was that the sinful go to hell, get punished in Hell for a limited amount of time (longer time for those who were more sinful), and then get annihilated. Basically universal reconciliation except instead of reconciliation at the end, you cease to exist. So you get both Hell and annihilation.

 

[Der Alte]

BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.

One might come to this conclusion if they only read their out-of-context proof texts and ignore that old heterodox bugaboo "context."
Let us read a passage Revelation that deals with death being eliminated.
Note, this passage is one continuous narrative some folks desperately try to make this passage support various heterodox beliefs. Verse 5 is after vs. 4, vs. 6 is after vs. 5 etc. there is no logical or grammatical way any verse can be “moved” before or after any other verse.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The voice from the throne says “no more death, vs. 4, “I make all things new,” vs. 5, “it is done,” vs. 6.
But after “no more death” etc. in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still “the second death,”
See vs. 7, “He that overcomes shall inherit all things,” n.b. there is a condition to inherit all things.” The converse is “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit anything.” For UR to be correct this verse should read “everyone shall inherit all things; and I will be their God, and they shall be my son.”

 

[JSRG]

Getting together having a group hug and patting each other on the back does not advance your argument. The number of proponents of any position does not prove its correctness.

Honestly, I feel it sort of gets in the way of the argument, as it makes things rather repetitive. Fine Linen is probably the worst in regards to this, as so many of his posts are just platitudes or stuff copy/pasted from (often rather old and out of date) universalist sources rather than something that's a genuine reply to what people are saying, plus his tendency to put in multiple such posts in a row. The sheer extent of it is making me ponder putting him on Ignore just so I don't have to so constantly scroll past posts that I see as so devoid of meaning and can just read the universalists who are better contributing to the discussion.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I recently heard an ex-SDA say that that teaching was that the sinful go to hell, get punished in Hell for a limited amount of time (longer time for those who were more sinful), and then get annihilated. Basically universal reconciliation except instead of reconciliation at the end, you cease to exist. So you get both Hell and annihilation.

Why would a loving God punish and then kill forever? I recall that E.G. White's magnum opus, The Great Controversy, begins and ends with the phrase "God is love." I hope I recall that correctly, and would such a God do that?

 

[JSRG]

Why would a loving God punish and then kill forever? I recall that E.G. White's magnum opus, The Great Controversy, begins and ends with the phrase "God is love." I hope I recall that correctly, and would such a God do that?

Take that up with the Seventh Day Adventists, not me. But, I'll admit that this was secondhand information. Could be totally wrong.

 

[Lazarus Short]

One might come to this conclusion if they only read their out-of-context proof texts and ignore that old heterodox bugaboo "context."
Let us read a passage Revelation that deals with death being eliminated.
Note, this passage is one continuous narrative some folks desperately try to make this passage support various heterodox beliefs. Verse 5 is after vs. 4, vs. 6 is after vs. 5 etc. there is no logical or grammatical way any verse can be “moved” before or after any other verse.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The voice from the throne says “no more death, vs. 4, “I make all things new,” vs. 5, “it is done,” vs. 6.
But after “no more death” etc. in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still “the second death,”
See vs. 7, “He that overcomes shall inherit all things,” n.b. there is a condition to inherit all things.” The converse is “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit anything.” For UR to be correct this verse should read “everyone shall inherit all things; and I will be their God, and they shall be my son.”

For once, I read your entire post carefully, as it lacked multi-colors and references to those "irrefutable sources." I agree with your analysis of verse 7, in which the overcomer inherits all, and others less, little or nothing. As I have said before, I do not believe in the idea that ALL will be ushered into the Holy City under a shower of rose petals, and get all the rewards. Rewards is not the same as being simply saved, and even the saved must suffer some - otherwise they are better than their Master.

Back to verse 4. Death, sorrow, crying and pain are all behind us at that point, so no one dies after that, right? So when we get down to verse 8, those consigned to the LoF do not die there, correct?

In verse 5, the One on the throne says, "I make all things new." Does the Greek for "make" imply a thing or things completed, finished or in progress?

 

[Der Alte]

Why would a loving God punish and then kill forever? I recall that E.G. White's magnum opus, The Great Controversy, begins and ends with the phrase "God is love." I hope I recall that correctly, and would such a God do that?

I must have missed those verses which tell us we get to tell God what is or is not just, merciful, loving etc.

Romans 9:20-23
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,​

Feel free to try to tell me my understanding of this passage is mistaken,
Not bragging just stating fact once upon a time I was stationed in Germany, it happened to be the year Elvis was stationed there.
My job required me to supervise local hires. I already spoke German but one of them told me my German was very good but they were Greeks. So I started learning Greek. The first word I learned was τραπεζη. I pointed at a table he said τραπεζη. And 2+ decades later I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level. Thus I am not interested or impressed by what some anonymous UR person says.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't want to get anything that takes things that are holy and pure from IN CHRIST and tries to hand them out to the flesh, apart from Christ.

I'm pretty sure you don't like being falsely accused any more than I do.

Where does my post say that there is "propitiation apart or outside of Christ" ?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't want to get anything that takes things that are holy and pure from IN CHRIST and tries to hand them out to the flesh, apart from Christ.

Dear Skid: Just say no!

It is impossible to hand the Holy to flesh. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is Spirit is Spirit and never the twain shall meet.

 

[FineLinen]

God’s Ultimate Intention -Dr. Albert Jenke-

• Chapter One](TLC - Universal Salvation - Gods Ultimate Intention)

"Law and Grace" , by Andrew Jukes

• Chapter Two

From the Writings of William Law

• Chapter Three

"ALL-In-ALL" , by A. E. Knoch

• Chapter Four

A Study In Job and Jonah

• Chapter Five

"Christ Triumphant" , by Thomas Allin

• Chapter Six

TRUTH vs. "Sacred Cows"

• Chapter Seven

Prelude and Summary

• Chapter Eight

Paul’s Soaring Logic

• Chapter Nine

To “Seek” – Or To SAVE

• Chapter Ten

"Holiness Of God" , by R. C. Sproul

• Chapter Eleven

"Parting Is Such Sweet Sorrow"

• Outline

Scripture Reference and Major Premise Outline

• Addendum One

Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years … by J.W. HANSON, D.D.

• Addendum Two

Excerpt from “Christ Triumphant” — the true meaning of the words “Aion” and “Aionios” … by Thomas Allin

• Addendum Three

Book “Christ Triumphant” … by Thomas Allin

• Addendum Four

Book “Restitution of All Things” … by Andrew Jukes

• Addendum Five

Growth In the Realization of God … by James Coram

• Addendum Six

The Recognition of Universal Reconciliation … by Ernest L. Martin

• Addendum Seven 1

"Calvin and Election" , by Dr. C.D. Cole

 

[Der Alte]

...

<LS>For once, I read your entire post carefully, as it lacked multi-colors and references to those "irrefutable sources." I agree with your analysis of verse 7, in which the overcomer inherits all, and others less, little or nothing. As I have said before, I do not believe in the idea that ALL will be ushered into the Holy City under a shower of rose petals, and get all the rewards. Rewards is not the same as being simply saved, and even the saved must suffer some - otherwise they are better than their Master.
Back to verse 4. Death, sorrow, crying and pain are all behind us at that point, so no one dies after that, right? So when we get down to verse 8, those consigned to the LoF do not die there, correct?
In verse 5, the One on the throne says, "I make all things new." Does the Greek for "make" imply a thing or things completed, finished or in progress?<LS>

...

Ah yes the old argument about Greek. If you want to refute what I say please consult a parsed NT which will answer your questions. I have an answer but I would like for you to harmonize vss. 4 and 8 without twisting the vss. beyond recognition.
Now about your argument re: vs. 8. let us read it.

"(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."​

Note it says "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone [sulphur] which IS the second death." For your argument to be correct it must read "which is 'called' the second death,"

 

[Jord Simcha]

It makes sense to me in the context of the rest of the Bible that the second death would be like our first "death", the one which Paul describes in Galatians 2:20.

As for defining love as opposed to God doing it, surely God would do a better job than a mortal man:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

I look forward to seeing God's actions and judgements because I believe it will be seeing supernatural love in action, and because I believe in a positive outcome which embarasses none of the believers.

For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35

 

[mmksparbud]

BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.

Death and hell are ended when the last sinner is ashes---nothing left. The earth is remade. Nothing else dies ever again. You do not seem to comprehend what death is. To say that as long as anyone is dead it means death has not been defeated is the silliest statement I've ever heard. The new earth has nothing that will ever die again---that is what the death of death means. The wicked have ceased to exist. To try and make that out to be something that is still going on is a totally ignorant thing to say. Nothing is nothing. You make no sense. The wicked will be as though they have never been. You are saying the equivalent "nothing is not defeated because it is nothing!!!"

 

[FineLinen]

Death and hell are ended when the last sinner is ashes---nothing left. The earth is remade. Nothing else dies ever again. You do not seem to comprehend what death is. To say that as long as anyone is dead it means death has not been defeated is the silliest statement I've ever heard. The new earth has nothing that will ever die again---that is what the death of death means. The wicked have ceased to exist. To try and make that out to be something that is still going on is a totally ignorant thing to say. Nothing is nothing. You make no sense. The wicked will be as though they have never been. You are saying the equivalent "nothing is not defeated because it is nothing!!!"

Dear Lady: Death (all death) is swallowed up in Life (His Life).

Our God loses nothing, not leftover fish and bread from His miracles, and most assuedly every last broken and bruised remnant of the dislocation of Adam 1.

The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous": every one!

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: Death (all death) is swallowed up in Life (His Life).

Our God loses nothing, not leftover fish and bread from His miracles, and most assuedly every last broken and bruised remnant of the dislocation of Adam 1.

The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous": every one!

Death is destroyed in the 2nd death. Death will cease to exist after everything is in ashes and there is not one single sinner left---and no sin. Where there is no sin---there is no penalty for it. And the wages of sin is death.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[FineLinen]

It makes sense to me in the context of the rest of the Bible that the second death would be like our first "death", the one which Paul describes in Galatians 2:20.

As for defining love as opposed to God doing it, surely God would do a better job than a mortal man:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

I look forward to seeing God's actions and judgements because I believe it will be seeing supernatural love in action, and because I believe in a positive outcome which embarasses none of the believers.

For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35

Dear Jord: Greetings again. Our God is indeed kind to all including the unthankful and evil.

I am glad you have joined us on C.F. You are a remarkable addition to what some of us are seeing in our magnificent God!

God's judgements are life

 

[Jord Simcha]

Dear Jord: Greetings again. Our God is indeed kind to all including the unthankful and evil.

I am glad you have joined us on C.F. You are a remarkable addition to what some of us are seeing in our magnificent God!

God's judgements are life

thank you

 

[Lazarus Short]

Death and hell are ended when the last sinner is ashes---nothing left. The earth is remade. Nothing else dies ever again. You do not seem to comprehend what death is. To say that as long as anyone is dead it means death has not been defeated is the silliest statement I've ever heard. The new earth has nothing that will ever die again---that is what the death of death means. The wicked have ceased to exist. To try and make that out to be something that is still going on is a totally ignorant thing to say. Nothing is nothing. You make no sense. The wicked will be as though they have never been. You are saying the equivalent "nothing is not defeated because it is nothing!!!"

That is almost amusing. You are telling me that "The wicked have ceased to exist." Pardon me, but that is what DEATH is. The antediluvian peoples are still dead, every one of them, even though the "world that then was" is long gone. Or, burned to ashed in the Lake of Fire...yup, they will still be dead by any definition of death, that is to say, not alive. Uffda!

 

[FineLinen]

Death is destroyed in the 2nd death. Death will cease to exist after everything is in ashes and there is not one single sinner left---and no sin. Where there is no sin---there is no penalty for it. And the wages of sin is death.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Dear Lady: Cast off your shackles. God loves every last sinner. He always has, He always will. His love is what He is in essence. His steadfast love never ceases: ever!

Every one of us skip through the Scriptures with a very limited grasp of what our poor blind eyes are attempting to grasp. It is the very reason the Master of Glory declares>>>

“He opened their minds that they might understand the Scriptures.”

2000 years have not helped to eradicate the situation within each and every one of us. ONLY the anointing of the Holy Spirit of the Living God can, and will, alleviate our dire need of Him and His exceeding love & patience!

 

[Skidder]

I'm pretty sure you don't like being falsely accused any more than I do.

Where does my post say that there is "propitiation apart or outside of Christ" ?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Steve, I am not falsely accusing you. I respect you and your opinion. We are brothers, I appreciate your help in my other post about speaking in tongues. However, I really believe you need to reexamine your position on forgiveness of sins being outside of Christ. Christ is everything, and apart from Him there is NOTHING!

Grace and Peace...