BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Saint Steven]

A bit too short-shrift, possibly.

That's why I was needling you earlier about putting together an organized statement of events. You had pulled out some very helpful puzzle pieces. I was thinking we should try to put the puzzle together a bit. Even a more complete statement than what you just did - which was awesome in its own right. But I was trying to get something with a broader reach. You seems to have a handle on it. And you said it gave you pause to think. (something like that)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This bears repeating. Nicely encapsuled statement. Thanks.

Btw I'll add that for my part I'm so impressed with the quality of your and the rest of 'Team UR' brothers on CF. I forgot to mention MartyMonster in that list I made a few days ago (is that 6 of us in all?).

Anyway, everyone's got their own approach and insights to bring, I have to say your scriptural knowledge and ability to call it in makes me want to shut myself in a room for a year and memorise the Bible! Plus you can fight a war of attrition with der Alter. Takes serious endurance man!

And I just become more convinced in the truth of UR. Praise God, for with Him all things are possible.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's why I was needling you earlier about putting together an organized statement of events. You had pulled out some very helpful puzzle pieces. I was thinking we should try to put the puzzle together a bit. Even a more complete statement than what you just did - which was awesome in its own right. But I was trying to get something with a broader reach. You seems to have a handle on it. And you said it gave you pause to think. (something like that)

Yep I haven't forgotten. The challenge is to draw out the most suitable texts in Rev, because of the highly figurative/ symbolic/ apocalyptic language used. I'll get on to it asap my man.

 

[FineLinen]

Not according to Strong's Concordance (free online)

Result of search for "polus":

4183. polus pol-oos' including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:--abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare 4118, 4119.


Nothing in there about or even close to "all".

Dear Rick: You are dealing with an old wreck of a once powerful man of muscles and exquisite tastes. Please do not finish me off premature.

You are bringing out the big guns with the introduction of Dr. Strong.

God Equation=

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Questions=

1. How many are "made sinners" by one man's disobedience?

2. How many are "made righteous" by One?

3. How much is "many"?

4. Are both sides equal?

Many>>>>>>Many

What is an equation?

Equation=

n. The act or process of equating or of being equated.

n. The state of being equal.

n. A statement asserting the equality of two expressions, usually written as a linear array of symbols that are separated into left and right sides and joined by an equal sign.

 

[Saint Steven]

(is that 6 of us in all?).

Yes. I think I count six. The UR squadron. - lol --- (brothers in arms)
Each with an awesome POV and individual gifts that harmonize so well.

 

[Saint Steven]

I love the way we camp out on an anti-UR topic and just make ourselves at home. - lol

I was watching a video with Baxter Kruger speaking. He just pointed this out about the Holy Spirit. This is rich. (all flesh)

Acts 2:17 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Dr. C. Baxter Kruger, theologian, writer and fishing lure designer is the Director of Perichoresis Ministries. Baxter is a native of Prentiss, Mississippi. He and his wife Beth have been married for 30 years and have 4 children. A life long student of psychology, Baxter has a degrees in political science, divinity, and earned his Doctor of Philosophy from Kings College, Aberdeen University in Aberdeen, Scotland under Professor James B. Torrance. He is the author of 8 books, including The Great Dance, Jesus and the Undoing of Adam and Across All Worlds, and recently the international bestseller, The Shack Revisited. He teaches around the world. He is an avid outdoorsman and holds two United States patents for his fishing lure designs. He is also the founder and President of Mediator Lures.

 

[Saint Steven]

More on the "all flesh" theme. Have a blessed Sunday. =o)

Luke 3:4-7 KJV
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John 17:1-3 KJV
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[FineLinen]

Of all the bewares that are enunciated, this beware ranks with a capital B.

Just think of it>>>

All the broken seed of Adam restored by at- one- ment.

All the weary and heavy laden home to the Author from whom they have been lost.

No more sin and sorrow, the curse gone, swallowed in Him.

The prophets and sages no longer having to proclaim deliverance.

No more groan of futility in us or them.

What a glorious Hope, what a glorious Day, what a glorious God!

 

[Saint Steven]

...I have to say your scriptural knowledge and ability to call it in makes me want to shut myself in a room for a year and memorise the Bible!

This is actually an achievable goal. More easily done than you imagine. Because we don't have to memorize the whole Bible. The Spirit knows the whole Bible. We only need to read the whole thing once to initiate a wonderful tool, the Spirit reminding us what it says.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It is the death of death---with the death of Satan and every sinner---the reason for death is eliminated. No more sin, no more death.

BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.

 

[Skidder]

Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

I love you brother, but I have to disagree with you on this UR teaching... there is no sweet spot of propitiation apart or outside of Christ in any way, HE IS OUR ALL IN ALL! Same goes for redemption, HE IS REDEMPTION, the forgiveness of sins.

There are only two standings before God, therefore only TWO REALMS: Saved from sin or unsaved, crucified or uncrucified, redeemed or unredeemed, justified or unjustified, lost or found, darkness or light, chains or freedom, death or life, Old Covenant or New Covenant, law or grace, unwashed or washed, apart from Christ or in Christ, kingdom of darkness or Kingdom of the Son. There is no third, fourth, or fifth realm or standing before God. The person of Jesus Christ is the propitiation/atonement for sin. Those who reject the realm of IN CHRIST reject the ATONEMENT for sins, WHO IS CHRIST, even though HE DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. They are still outside of the realm where ALL SIN has been paid and atoned for... THAT BEAUTIFUL PLACE CALLED, IN CHRIST!

They must be washed from their sins in His blood. And this place of washing only happens IN CHRIST. Only by partaking of His body and blood could they ever be washed from their sins; therefore the sacrifice cannot be separated from the Christ. And the only way to gain entrance into this precious realm of IN CHRIST is by faith in the one who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third. There is no pre-wash cycle with the blood of Christ. A person has either been washed from their sins by His blood, or they will die in their sins. If the body ruled by sin has not been crucified with Christ (passed through the veil) there is no entrance into the mercy seat. Atonement for sin can never be found apart from His blood, and this blood of His forgiveness is only available IN CHRIST. And access is only granted through the death of Christ. And the only way to be crucified with Christ is by faith IN HIM. The very reason we should NEVER separate the blood from salvation. Because that is what salvation means, being saved from sin! Is it not sin that separates us from God? Is it not sin that brings God's wrath? Is it not sin that brings condemnation, judgement, and death? And if sin is the problem, CHRIST IS THE ONLY CURE! They must be IN CHRIST, and Christ in them.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

John 6:53
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 1:5
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

IN HIM we have redemption through His BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God

Colossians 2:10
and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

1 John 3:5
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Grace and Peace...

 

[FineLinen]

Dave, Dave, Dave... I love you brother, but I have to disagree with you on this UR teaching... there is no sweet spot of propitiation apart or outside of Christ in any way, HE IS OUR ALL IN ALL! Same goes for redemption, HE IS REDEMPTION, the forgiveness of sins.

Skid, Skid, Skid: you can disagree till the cows come home. The damnation dogma & the annihilation dogma are but extensions of misery, triumphant death(s), a Saviour unable to save to the uttermost, and the curse very much in place.

The Lord Jesus Christ has come to set the prisoner free: He shall accomplish the task fully.

He has come to draw/ drag off in power/ impel all mankind unto Himself: He does not fail.

He is the at-one-ment, the One who reconciles the ta pante back to Father: He shall do it!

"IN/EN" His Name every knee bows, every tongue confesses in union with His Name You are Lord!

100% Success + "all the more"

 

[FineLinen]

Paul, Paul, Paul: You may be Saint Paul, but alas, Skidder must disagree with you. Could you tweek your epistle a mite?

“It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…”

 

[FineLinen]

Dear St. Paul: surely you jest. God is only a potential Saviour, He would like to save us, but alas our powerful will overshadows the Will of all wills?

God IS the Saviour of ta pante, not mite be, He is!

 

[Saint Steven]

BUT - with the death of death, as you say, how can anyone still be be dead and/or in Hell? There is no getting around it: If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell then, obviously, Death has not been defeated, let alone has not died.

She's an Annihilationist.

 

[Saint Steven]

I love you brother, but I have to disagree with you on this UR teaching... there is no sweet spot of propitiation apart or outside of Christ in any way, HE IS OUR ALL IN ALL! Same goes for redemption, HE IS REDEMPTION, the forgiveness of sins.

Where does my post say that there is "propitiation apart or outside of Christ" ?
Perhaps you are misunderstanding UR. I know it takes a while to get it.
There is a link to a very informative seminar in post #926.
Check out the Gospel in Two Chairs. A real eye-opener.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Rick: You are dealing with an old wreck of a once powerful man of muscles and exquisite tastes. Please do not finish me off premature.

You are bringing out the big guns with the introduction of Dr. Strong.

God Equation=

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Questions=

1. How many are "made sinners" by one man's disobedience?

2. How many are "made righteous" by One?

3. How much is "many"?

4. Are both sides equal?

Many>>>>>>Many

What is an equation?

Equation=

n. The act or process of equating or of being equated.

n. The state of being equal.

n. A statement asserting the equality of two expressions, usually written as a linear array of symbols that are separated into left and right sides and joined by an equal sign.

Dear Rick: I appreciate the in depth Dr. Strong expertise on polus. Do you have access to Wm. F. Arndt & Wilbur G Gingrich Greek English N.T.? Perhaps Danker, Arndt & Gingrich is more up your alley? Would you like to compare their grasp of polus?

On second thought, lets simply focus on the equation.

Both sides are equal. If you prefer many that is ducky, as long as you do not attempt to make one side different than the other. If you would like to stack the deck in favour of the Last Adam and His "all the more" I will concur. What is your pleasure?

Some = some>>>all = all>>>many = many >>> polus = polus

 

[Lazarus Short]

She's an Annihilationist.

I know that the official SDA position is annihilationism, but I remember reading some of E.G. White's writings, the "Conflict of the Ages" series, IIRC, where she described people going to Hell. That's something that comes from cribbing from multiple sources. Yes, in case you're wondering, I was an SDA member for awhile - studied my way in...and then studied by way back out.

 

[Der Alte]

Yep I haven't forgotten. The challenge is to draw out the most suitable texts in Rev, because of the highly figurative/ symbolic/ apocalyptic language used. I'll get on to it asap my man.

Yes. I think I count six. The UR squadron. - lol --- (brothers in arms)
Each with an awesome POV and individual gifts that harmonize so well.

Getting together having a group hug and patting each other on the back does not advance your argument. The number of proponents of any position does not prove its correctness.

 

[Skidder]

Where does my post say that there is "propitiation apart or outside of Christ" ?
Perhaps you are misunderstanding UR. I know it takes a while to get it.
There is a link to a very informative seminar in post #926.
Check out the Gospel in Two Chairs. A real eye-opener.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I don't want to get anything that takes things that are holy and pure from IN CHRIST and tries to hand them out to the flesh, apart from Christ. That is no different than separating the blood from salvation. CHRIST is everything, including salvation from sin, and outside of Christ WE HAVE NOTHING that is good. CHRIST JESUS IS THE ATONEMENT FOR OUR ALL SINS. And without Christ Jesus WE HAVE NO ATONEMENT. No Jesus, No atonement!

Most people don't question the fact He the resurrection and the life, and to have the resurrection and the life you must be IN CHRIST by faith. But the bible is also clear that HE IS THE SACRIFICE. Therefore redemption is not separate from Him. Just like we can't hand out the resurrection and life apart from the Christ, Same goes, we can't hand out the sacrifice apart from THE CHRIST. The Lamb who was slain is the sacrifice just as much as He is the resurrection and the life. The same body that we were reconciled in through death is the same body that was crucified, buried, and raises on the third. And in the that same body we are also raised and seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

We do not split the gospel in half and hand out the first apart from the second. The body and blood of Christ are not separate from the atoning sacrifice, who is Christ, just like He is not separate from the resurrection and the life. If they are not partakers of the body and blood of Christ they are not partakers of the resurrection and the life. And if a person rejects THE CHRIST unto death, they have not partaken in the body and blood of Christ, therefore they will surely die in their sins, because they REJECTED the only redemption for their sins, WHO IS CHRIST.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Colossians 1:20-21
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Ephesians 2:6
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.