BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[FineLinen]

Dear Skid: Let's post it again. Jesus Christ is the beginning and ending of our Father's glorious Rectification. There is zero zao life outside of Him. Zero. Nada

 

[FineLinen]

The Fullest Meaning of Christ's Indwelling

 

[Skidder]

So do you believe forgiveness of sins is outside of Christ?

 

[Saint Steven]

1 John 2:2
And HE IS THE propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

 

[FineLinen]

So do you believe forgiveness of sins is outside of Christ?

 

[FineLinen]

The Herald Of God’s Grace Website

The Herald Of God’s Grace

Library of articles regarding the salvation & reconciliation of ALL mankind

There is one iron clad road to grasping what is described as a “mystery” in the Scripture. One takes the Scripture into his closest closet, shuts the door, leaves the door shut and listens to what the Spirit is saying. You may be required to stay up all night, perhaps many nights as you and the Mighty One wrestle.

Mystery = musterion =

Not the mysterious, but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.

 

[Skidder]

Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

I believe HE IS THE PROPITIATION for all sins. With the emphasis on HE IS THE PROPITIATION, and He is not separate from the propitiation in any way. No Jesus, no propitiation. To separate Christ from propitiation is to separate the blood from salvation. Like I said earlier, the veil is torn open for all, but not all have passed through His death. And since Christ is the sacrifice, HE IS REDEMPTION, the forgiveness of sins. Therefore redemption the forgiveness of sins is only IN CHRIST not separate from Christ in anyway. NO JESUS, NO REDEMPTION. NO JESUS, NO PROPITIATION. We are not of those who separate the sacrifice form the Lamb, the blood from salvation, Jesus from propitiation, the cross from Christ, redemption from the redeemer, the Christ from the Gospel!!!

Ephesians 1:7
IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe HE IS THE PROPITIATION for all sins. ...

Does that mean he is the propitiation for all sinners? (the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that?
That Christ is the propitiation NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS... but also for the sins of the whole world. ??? (I do)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

 

[FineLinen]

The Way is now open. At- one- ment has been accomplished in the Master Lesous, the Saviour of the whole world. Not some of the world, the hilasmos of the holos!

In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here the koine hilasmos is used.

Jesus Christ IS the hilasmos of the holos!

 

[Rick Otto]

="Saint Steven, post: Are you sure?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I didn't disagree with that. I offered that the whole world didn't in it's entirety believe.
So even though His sacrifice was sufficient for all, His Father didn't elect the whole world to receive the mercy of saving grace through which we receive faith. As we can see for ourselves where is addressing believers, not the whole world:
Eph 1:1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I'm more than just pretty sure about this, Steve.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Again, this Epistle is not written to the whole world. In Rmans 1:7 he directs it to believers.
But this passage is even more specific and we can see who "them all" are:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And please don't confuse "all Isreal" with just a couple tribes. In addition to all that, we must remember 'all who are of Israel are not Israel." (Romans 9:6)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

"The many" not "the whole world".

 

[FineLinen]

"The many" not "the whole world".

Dear Rick:

Many = many>>>some = some>>>all =all>>>polus = polus

The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous". Every last one!

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="Shrewd Manager: Is there a difference in the results of German and Cherokee/ French applications? May I suggest there shouldn't be.

Of course not . I was pointing out some cultural input just to help you understand my orientation to all of this. Mercy (grace) is never earned.

If God's justice system isn't better than man's then there's a problem with one's theology. God's justice is condign, based on 'as ye sow so shall ye reap'. God has the power to utterly destroy or totally redeem. He is never short on information and never judges unrighteously. Moreover, He's merciful. Also, our God is one, meaning at least that His attributes are never in tension, they are all aspects of His commitment to save our sorry hides, for He is love.

Agreed. Except I'm not promoting man's system. I'm explaining God's.

So the word used for 'punishment' throughout the NT is kolasis (correction) not timoreisis (retribution).

We're not discussing mere punishment, we are talking about eternal damnation.

The object is always to repair, to save those condemned by the disease of the world through the first Adam. How? By utterly destroying evil and delivering the man from the bonds of the flesh. By what method? Jesus Christ and the gospel as undoing Adam1, reconciling the world to God and delivering a message of good news for all, followed by personal baptism with the holy fire that consumes evil and refines away the dross.

OK, but that's still just about punishment damnation isn't healing.

Ultimately, that holy fire immersion is applied to all unbelievers. Purification and sanctification in the superabundant grace of God.

It's a lovely thought and it was one that occurred to me on my own as I read scripture as a teenager, but I could never find any solid support for the idea. I even imagined Lucifer to be forgiven & healed first, then maybe last,...
I'm open to schooling on it, but you guys aren't convincing me at all.

Look at the judges in the OT. The focus is always on restoration, jubilee-style. The judges like Gideon and Samson were highly imperfect men who were yet the saviours of Israel. Back then, when the judge came to town, the widow whose house had been devoured by scribes would get to plead her case and have their ill-gotten gains restored to her. Restorative justice, after the destruction comes restoration. The narrative pattern of the Bible, it's everywhere.

I appreciate narrative patterns, but I have never in any narrative or even casual conversation have heard Gideon & Samson were judges. Wow. That's pretty serious of a mistake especially if it's on my part because I have read the entire bible cover to cover 7 times, and done many studies on themes, symbols & images, etc.

Unfortunately our modern western lenses have us default to a particular Romanised mindset of God the harsh magistrate. But the Biblical tradition sets the judge as a wise arbiter who restores lives and property. (These days if a family court custody judgment bisects the baby, it's considered a pretty good outcome!)

Yes sir. I attended parochial school. I remember 1st grade catechism where I looked in my book and saw a man with long hair & a beard in white robes, children smiling and laughing, running towards Him. I looked up from my book and saw priests and nuns in funeral black, crew cuts & clean shaved couldn't see any hair except eyebrows & lashes on the nuns... and all the kids were scared to death of them. In 4th grade they tried to indoctrinate me with transubstantiation. That's when I knew I had to learn to keep my head & objections down until I was old enough to just walk away. So I'm savvy to what you're saying about western lenses and Roman mindsets, bro. Right on.

Condign justice is experienced as the pain of tearing away habitual sin. The fire of humiliation we experience in refusing to let go of pride, for example. But the object is always to save - that's how divine justice and mercy are aligned, and not in tension. So He can utterly destroy in order to totally redeem. Isn't this indeed the message of the cross?

Not exactly. In fact that sounds more like the enemy's motive operandi - "Order out of chaos".
I liked the first two sentences there, but If we want to reduce the entirety of this cosmic drama to it's essential purpose, I would assert it can be found here:
Romans 9:[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

btw, thank you for your interest, enthusiasm, and good humor.
I'm as sure as I can be that you're saved. I was at about 3&1/2 yrs old.
This beats the heck out of watching TV, etc.
So YOU ROCK! lol
You too, Steven.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Lazarus Short, Do you recall that God's justice was to send His Own Son down here to die for our benefit?

Not at all. What I recall is that God's justice was to condemn us all as we were in Adam. Sending His Son down to die was God's mercy not His justice.

Further, look at the 20th chapter of the Revelation, in which there are two judgments. Before each judgment, Satan is taken out of the way...and so as a result, the "prosecutor's chair" is effectively empty!

Cool, but removing the prosecutor does not remove the charge & allegations. In fact, most civil court activity never involves a prosecutor. Often they don't even bother to formally write up the charges because we stupidly give them jurisdiction instead of insisting that even jurisdiction is an element of the case we are supposed to assumed innocent of until that proof is provided.

God is not only committed to justice, He is committed to mercy: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV

"Them" is Israel, not "the whole world".

 

[Rick Otto]

Dear Rick:

Many = many>>>some = some>>>all =all>>>polus = polus

The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous". Every last one!

Not according to Strong's Concordance (free online)

Result of search for "polus":

4183. polus pol-oos' including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:--abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare 4118, 4119.


Nothing in there about or even close to "all".

 

[FineLinen]

Not according to Strong's Concordance (free online)

Result of search for "polus":

4183. polus pol-oos' including the forms from the alternate pollos; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:--abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare 4118, 4119.


Nothing in there about or even close to "all".

Dear Rick: You must be right. Many are "made sinners" in the first Adam, therefore the same many are "made righteous" in the Last.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

In the modern translations it says "atonement". I'm not a KJV purist by any means, but I'm also not against it. I like to check other translations, but I prefer the "Textus Receptus" (Received Text) over the "Alexandrian text" for the most part due to the lack of verses. While some prefer the "Majority text". But I like to study all the different translations. The bible I pack to church is the NKJV, but I don't limit myself to just one translation.

Sure, glad to hear you're not KJVO ('good enough for Jesus' (TM)). We have to compare translations of scriptures, and also do word studies and check out homilies/ exegeses/ commentaries. 'Eternal punishment' vs 'ages of correction' is a prime example. I'm not a specialist on textual differences but no general problems with the Textus Receptus tradition. It's the translators' biases that cause the problems.

You might also consider perusing the so-called apocrypha and deuterocanonical books. Jesus alludes to/ references scriptures in some of these in the gospels, so that should give them instant credibility. Take the Epistle of Jeremiah for instance, a short letter against idolatry which gives more context for 'where moth and rust destroy.'

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, this Epistle is not written to the whole world. In Rmans 1:7 he directs it to believers.

That's good to pay attention to who is being spoken to. But in this case, who is being spoken ABOUT is also of prime importance.

Certainly the words "everyone" and "all" in this verse are not limited to the reading audience. Were only those in the church at Rome bound over to disobedience? Were they the only ones to receive mercy? No, this scripture has broader application than that.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Of course not . I was pointing out some cultural input just to help you understand my orientation to all of this. Mercy (grace) is never earned.

Apologies if I rode roughshod over a stylish presentation of your view by way of background and cultural context. I was half-English half-Russian Jewish stock (yes one of them lol) and chief of sinners when God changed my mind and heart age 42 (divine humour - ever read Douglas Adams - he was right about the answer to the ultimate question!), so internal tensions were de rigeur.

We're not discussing mere punishment, we are talking about eternal damnation.

In the damnationist's proof text grab-bag, you'll find maybe a dozen NT scriptures, the bulk of which relate to alleged eternal punishment. Not sure how damnation can survive the excision of punishment?

Are you talking about the condemnation to death by man's love of sin? If so, firstly not sure that's what's generally understood by 'damnation', and more importantly we're taught Jesus has saved the world from that fate already, on the principle that whatever was lost in Adam was more than saved/ recovered/ atoned for in Christ.

I'm open to schooling on it, but you guys aren't convincing me at all.

What would convince you my man? The foundational covenants are universal in scope (all the nations shall be blessed, God will ultimately renew all things), the gospel is universal (glad tidings of great joy for all mankind), God is good and His explicit plan is to be all in all, Jesus came to save the whole world, Yeshua means God's Salvation and is the omega. God is love, light, gracious and merciful beyond measure. His enemies are spiritual, He loves His critters so radically that He forgives even the crimes of deicide and regicide. Jesus heals and forgives, chastises all those he loves.

They're some bulwarks for faith in UR. Not sure where the blockage is there dude (great movie btw)?

never in any narrative or even casual conversation have heard Gideon & Samson were judges. Wow.

Man, go back and re-read Judges. Dare I ask who or what you thought the title referred to? The judges were 12 saviours/ deliverers and leaders of Israel before the kings. This is a bang-on type and forerunner of Jesus (or the apostles?), who himself contrasted 2 types of judging - unto condemnation and unto salvation, and of course taught the latter. Here's a backgrounder:
Intro to Judges

Yes sir. I attended parochial school. I remember 1st grade catechism where I looked in my book and saw a man with long hair & a beard in white robes, children smiling and laughing, running towards Him. I looked up from my book and saw priests and nuns in funeral black, crew cuts & clean shaved couldn't see any hair except eyebrows & lashes on the nuns... and all the kids were scared to death of them. In 4th grade they tried to indoctrinate me with transubstantiation. That's when I knew I had to learn to keep my head & objections down until I was old enough to just walk away. So I'm savvy to what you're saying about western lenses and Roman mindsets, bro. Right on.

It really got out of hand imho post-Augustine's eternal punishment paradigm to Justinian who closed the loop with his Origenist purges and re-introduction of Roman law and empire. So then the RCC was forced to concede to the doctrine of purgatory to resolve the inevitable problem of universal damnation (save for the odd saint and martyr), leading to the fissures opening up with medieval torture and terror, high corruption, and hawking indulgences, against which Savonarola and then Luther were raised up. But they failed to lay the ax to the root and overturn the hell doctrine! What happened instead? Protestantism, which bred lovely guys like Jonathon Edwards whose one bad hair day sermon resonates pungently to this day. They doubled-down on hell in an effort to gain legitimacy (our hellfire God is more sovereign!), when they were supposed to erase it! Still, God's got it covered - He returns the sceptre back to the Jews lol...for now.

My thesis in a nutshell.

Not exactly. In fact that sounds more like the enemy's motive operandi - "Order out of chaos".
I liked the first two sentences there, but If we want to reduce the entirety of this cosmic drama to it's essential purpose, I would assert it can be found here:
Romans 9:[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Don't know how it's an order ab chao deal. More like a manufacturer's total recall of defective product for warranty repair and replacement. Or the amputation of limbs to save the patient, idk.

They're powerful scriptures, no doubt, but what do they mean? They're not stand-alones. Contextually they're perfectly consistent and supportive of UR, ie destruction never an end in itself, but just a station on the road to salvation eg the flood, the Babylonian exile.

Rick, thanks for the positive words, it's great to meet you too. Always a chance to rejoice in meeting others who are also not (entirely?) ignorant of the devil's schemes and share a love for the spirit of Christ and the divine comedy.

 

[Saint Steven]

What would convince you my man? The foundational covenants are universal in scope (all the nations shall be blessed, God will ultimately renew all things), the gospel is universal (glad tidings of great joy for all mankind), God is good and His explicit plan is to be all in all, Jesus came to save the whole world, Yeshua means God's Salvation and is the omega. God is love, light, gracious and merciful beyond measure. His enemies are spiritual, He loves His critters so radically that He forgives even the crimes of deicide and regicide. Jesus heals and forgives, chastises all those he loves.

This bears repeating. Nicely encapsuled statement. Thanks.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This bears repeating. Nicely encapsuled statement. Thanks.

And all credit to...the HS!

But yes, it's like tracts and summaries of UR are being refined in the fire of disputation here on CF.

Maybe overly, sometimes eg lately I've just been hammering LoF issues with the admonition to:

Follow the nations' story in Rev 20:9, 20:15, 21:24-26, 22:2: devoured by fire, cast into the LoF, emerge repentant, receive healing.

A bit too short-shrift, possibly.