BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Jord Simcha]

Criticizing me for not doing something you have not done. I posted several verses where Jesus was speaking which I say supersede the verses which you have posted. No response only crickets.

I don't claim to have all the answers. I wouldn't say Jesus' words supersede the rest of the Bible. Yes it holds more weight if Jesus said it (I'm still looking for universalism quotes from Him, I'll get back on that later when I collected them, John 3:17 comes to mind), but I don't think the apostles got it wrong. So, I agreed with you later when you said we ought to reconcile the words of the Bible.

Yes I responded with hell verses which you ignored. You want me to parse your verses while you ignore mine. But my response is coming.

Well I did say God is fire and Jesus is the worm that won't die according to some theologians.

And I'm now still reading an article on hell that mentions the use of the original words of which none translate into hell. (THE PAGAN DOCTRINE OF HELL)

Unsupported opinion. This is not stated or implied.

Who other than the immoral people is it that have need (thirst) for the water of life?

Now to your proof texts.

1Ti 4:10
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the l iving God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.​

Col 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc. The converse of vs. 23 “if you do NOT continue in your faith NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20][/color]
Let us read more from Paul about UR.

● 1Co 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Gal 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Eph 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse or more where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which states conditions for salvation.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1Co 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luk 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.​

A fate worse than death, no salvation

Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.​

Greater damnation, not salvation.
Now for you proof text, Luk 3:6

Luk 3:4-6
(4) As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(5) Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
(6) And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.​

In these vss. Luke is quoting Isaiah 40:4-5 but Luke misquoted the word salvation for glory.

Isa 40:4-5
(4) Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
(5) and the glory [כבוד /kabod] ]of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.​

What or who is the salvation that Paul said all flesh would see? c.f. Luk 2:30.

Luk 2:27-30
(27) And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
(28) Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
(29) Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
(30) For mine eyes have seen thy salvation[ ישועה/yeshuah] pronounced the same as Yeshua/ישוע Jesus’ name in Hebrew.​

Now let us review your proof text Rev 22:17.

Rev 22:17
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Is this an open invitation for all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike or are there certain people who shall in no wise enter as stated in Rev 21:27? What does “in no wise enter” mean in UR land? Does that somehow mean everybody can enter?

Rev 21:27
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

In Rev 22:11 God already abandoned the unjust and the filthy and there is no verse which says they were permitted to enter the city at some time.
Now let us review your proof text Rev 22:17 again.

Rev 22:17
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Is this an open invitation for all mankind, saint, sinner, righteous, unrighteous to enter? Let’s read the context of this verse.

Rev 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[Proof text vs. 17 omitted]
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and
from the things which are written in this book.​

Those who do not do God’s commandments do NOT have the right to the tree of light and may NOT enter through the gates into the city vs. 14,
If you disagree please explain to me how dead people can do the commandments of God? Also please explain how those whose names were not in the Lamb’s book of life when they died, somehow, get their name in the book of life? Rev 21:27 says only “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” can enter the city.
Vs. 19 clearly for those who do certain things God, Himself, will “take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city.” End of the book nothing follows, no reconciliation​

You haven't given your interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10 or Colossians 1:20. Are you trying to refute them?

Concerning Luke 3:6, Biblehub.com has 26 translations with "salvation", 1 "saving health", 1 "saving power" and 1 "The Life". So perhaps John used a different word than Isaiah?

Even if it is glory, do you say for some that would be in hell?

Concerning such and such (idolaters, murderers, etc.) shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Bible says such were some you.

After they drink the holy water of life they be healed and saved from their sin.

Then they live (and "can do the commandments of God"). And are spiritually clean(sed), so then Rev 21:27 does not apply to them any more.

 

[mmksparbud]

But that's obviously not what it teaches.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those in the first resurrection shall be priests of God and Christ, whereas the nations in the 4 quarters of the earth are those others gathered by Satan after the 1000 years. It is the nations, not the priests, who return in Rev 21:24-26 and Rev 22:2.

Exactly!
The 1st resurrection is of the saved---and we are all priests of God and of Christ----obviously the 2nd resurrection is of the unsaved---the nations --they are not of Christ and will have the 2nd death.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't claim to have all the answers. I wouldn't say Jesus' words supersede the rest of the Bible. Yes it holds more weight if Jesus said it (I'm still looking for universalism quotes from Him, I'll get back on that later when I collected them, John 3:17 comes to mind), but I don't think the apostles got it wrong. So, I agreed with you later when you said we ought to reconcile the words of the Bible.
Well I did say God is fire and Jesus is the worm that won't die according to some theologians.
And I'm now still reading an article on hell that mentions the use of the original words of which none translate into hell. (THE PAGAN DOCTRINE OF HELL)
Who other than the immoral people is it that have need (thirst) for the water of life?
You haven't given your interpretion of 1 Timothy 4:10 or Colossians 1:20. Are you trying to refute them?
Concerning Luke 3:6, Biblehub.com has 26 translations with "salvation", 1 "saving health", 1 "saving power" and 1 "The Life". So perhaps John used a different word than Isaiah?
Even if it is glory, do you say for some that would be in hell?
Concerning such and such (idolaters, murderers, etc.) shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The Bible says such were some you.
After they drink the holy water of life they be healed and saved from their sin.
Then they live (and "can do the commandments of God"). And are spiritually clean(sed), so then Rev 21:27 does not apply to them any more.

Please read my post [#244] on hell in this thread.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Please read my post [#244] on hell in this thread.

I read it.

My understanding of gehenna is that it was a (burning) garbage dump in the time that Jesus taught.

The hardest verse for me to reconcile is the one about Judas, where He said it had been better for him if he wasn't born, wondering if that is eternal, knowing His Word remains forever.

 

[Der Alte]

I read it.
My understanding of gehenna is that it was a (burning) garbage dump in the time that Jesus taught.
The hardest verse for me to reconcile is the one about Judas, where He said it had been better for him if he wasn't born, wondering if that is eternal, knowing His Word remains forever.

I doubt you read it.
You are wrong about Gehenna. I explained that in my post which you said you read. Here is another post for you to not read.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[FineLinen]

Exactly!
The 1st resurrection is of the saved---and we are all priests of God and of Christ----obviously the 2nd resurrection is of the unsaved---the nations --they are not of Christ and will have the 2nd death.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Dear Lady: Did you notice who is NOT "hurt" by the Lake of Theos?

The elite individuals who have followed the Lamb in the withersoever of His Road !

Yes the overcomer, and ONLY the overcomer!

 

[FineLinen]

Threatening People With God

Understanding the Foundations of Eternal Conscious Torment – Part Four

I particularly remember a message I heard on one particular Saturday Tithing Night at one particular revival. The evangelist told a story – a true story, mind you! – about a man whose money was always tight. One Sunday he gave into temptation and decided not to put his tithe in the offering plate. And wouldn’t you know it, that very same week, the starter in his car went out and he had to buy a new one. And surprise of surprises, the starter for the car came to the exact same amount – to the very penny – that his tithe would have been that week!

That’s right, folks. You don’t cheat on God!! He will GIT YOU!!!

 

[Jord Simcha]

I doubt you read it.

lol. God is my witness.

I was unimpressed by the claim that your sources were irrefutable.

You are wrong about Gehenna. I explained that in my post which you said you read. Here is another post for you to not read.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

So if not a dump or cemetary, your definition of Gehenna is ...? Hell? According to the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia?

 

[FineLinen]

lol. God is my witness.

I was unimpressed by the claim that your sources were irrefutable.

So if not a dump or cemetary, your definition of Gehenna is ...? Hell? According to the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia?

Dear Jord: What is wrong with you?

Have you read the J.E. amazing words on geheena?

Gehenna - The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia - Bible Encyclopedia

 

[Jord Simcha]

Dear Jord: What is wrong with you?

Have you read the J.E. amazing words on geheena?

Gehenna - The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia - Bible Encyclopedia

Very interesting sources.

The funniest part was that hell awaits every one who always follows his wife's advice.

 

[FineLinen]

Very interesting sources.

The funniest part was that hell awaits every one who always follows his wife's advice.

Dear Jord: I love D.A's irrefutable sources. I now realize why my poor old life has not been enhanced: I have been following my wife's advice (sometimes).

Always remember: "The fires of hell do not touch the Jewish sinners, they confess their sins at the gates of hell & return to God."

Beware non Jewish sinners, too late for you.

 

[Der Alte]

lol. God is my witness.
I was unimpressed by the claim that your sources were irrefutable.
So if not a dump or cemetary, your definition of Gehenna is ...? Hell? According to the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia?

Really not interested in what does or does not impress you.
You are welcome to try to refute the Jewish Enyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud if you feel inclined. I say they are irrefutable because I don't know of any evidence of any kind with similar or superior credentials which covers the same material these sources provide. I have seen some futile attempts to refute them by quoting various anonymous websites.
"Ge Hinnom," literally "valley of Hinnom" is actually a valley outside Jerusalem. Despite the oft repeated "internet legend" archaeological studies have failed to find any evidence that it was ever used as a place for burning trash or bodies.
However, archaeological studies have found a valley on the opposite side of Jerusalem, which was used as a trash dump from about 200 BC until ca. 70 AD. It was the Kidron valley.
Evidence for both available.

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: Did you notice who is NOT "hurt" by the Lake of Theos?

The elite individuals who have followed the Lamb in the withersoever of His Road !

Yes the overcomer, and ONLY the overcomer!

I know that! It is quite obvious. No one makes any decisions after death.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't claim to have all the answers. I wouldn't say Jesus' words supersede the rest of the Bible.

So you see the contradictions in the Bible. I agree.

 

[FineLinen]

I know that! It is quite obvious. No one makes any decisions after death.

Dear Lady: It is wonderful to hear how "quite" obvious our Father's word is. It does not require an anointing of the Holy Spirit, just read?

Your two questions=

1. Are you one of the ones who are identified as an overcomer in the Revelation?

2. What does it mean to be "hurt" by the Second Death?

 

[Der Alte]

So you see the contradictions in the Bible. I agree.

There are no contradictions in the Bible. That is a prevarication that heterodox religious groups indoctrinate their followers with, to support their false teachings.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Really not interested in what does or does not impress you.

That is fine.

You are welcome to try to refute the Jewish Enyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud if you feel inclined. I say they are irrefutable because I don't know of any evidence of any kind with similar or superior credentials which covers the same material these sources provide. I have seen some futile attempts to refute them by quoting various anonymous websites.
"Ge Hinnom," literally "valley of Hinnom" is actually a valley outside Jerusalem. Despite the oft repeated "internet legend" archaeological studies have failed to find any evidence that it was ever used as a place for burning trash or bodies.
However, archaeological studies have found a valley on the opposite side of Jerusalem, which was used as a trash dump from about 200 BC until ca. 70 AD. It was the Kidron valley.
Evidence for both available.

The only book I deem irrefutable is the Bible. I don't feel the necessity to prove all other books wrong though, at all.

 

[Jord Simcha]

So you see the contradictions in the Bible. I agree.

I wouldn't say that. Perhaps if you take an English translation at face value, you can find contradictions within one translation.

I would say there are irreconcilable (mis)interpretations of scripture, resulting in pro- and anti-universalist views. My view is gehenna is not everlasting hell. Young's Literal Translation has 0 mentions of hell.

 

[Der Alte]

I wouldn't say that. Perhaps if you take an English translation at face value, you can find contradictions within one translation.
I would say there are irreconcilable (mis)interpretations of scripture, resulting in pro- and anti-universalist views. My view is gehenna is not everlasting hell. Young's Literal Translation has 0 mentions of hell.

This is known as cherry picking sources, find a sources that supports one's religious views and unilaterally decide that source is the end all, be all authority.
If someone does not have any expertise in the Biblical Languages how do they know a version is "literal?"

Robert Young, LL.D., F.E.S.L. (10 September 1822 – 14 October 1888) was a Scottish publisher who was self-taught and proficient in various Orinetal languages. He published several works, the best known being a Bible translation, commonly referred to as Young's Literal Translation, and his Bible concordance, The Analytical Concordance to the Bible.
https://www.revolvy.com/page/Robert-Young-(biblical-scholar)​

 

[Jord Simcha]

This is known as cherry picking sources, find a sources that supports one's religious views and unilaterally decide that source is the end all, be all authority.
If someone does not have any expertise in the Biblical Languages how do they know a version is "literal?"

Robert Young, LL.D., F.E.S.L. (10 September 1822 – 14 October 1888) was a Scottish publisher who was self-taught and proficient in various Orinetal languages. He published several works, the best known being a Bible translation, commonly referred to as Young's Literal Translation, and his Bible concordance, The Analytical Concordance to the Bible.
https://www.revolvy.com/page/Robert-Young-(biblical-scholar)​

Well they claim (or he claims) it's literal. I've never read it myself and can't vouch for it, much less am I deciding it is the end all, be all authority. On the other hand though, I might be impressed (not that you care, right..) if you could bring forth a Bible translation without any universalist verses.