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Is there a denomination that accepts theistic evolution/old earth?

JAL

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The only way that Cain's wife could not be a daughter of Adam, is if the creation of man and woman in Genesis 1 is different from the creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2. I don't find it likely, because even in genetics there is evidence of what they call the Mitochondrial Eve. Every single human on this planet traces their matriarchal lineage to her (the mitochondria have a different DNA sequence than our own, and they come from the egg cell, so it's traced by matriarchal lineage rather than patriarchal).
Presumably there were other races for Cain to get his wife from. Incest wasn't necessary. Let me explain.

The only way God can justify allowing the sin of Adam to be detrimental to all humanity is if we are Adam - each of our souls is a subsection of his (originally dense) physical soul. I made a thread on this. YOU sinned in the garden even though you don't remember doing so, therefore.

Adam was the first 'man' in the strict sense of a soul endued with a conscience. The fossil record, however, indicates he wasn't the first humanoid. These humanoids physically resembled Adam but were not the first 'men' because they lacked conscience - regardless of how sentient their souls.

As already suggested, after Adam's fall, God redistributed his sin-stained soul among his descendants (otherwise there is no way to explain how we managed to be born tainted) - AND ALSO DISTRIBUTED IT AMONG THOSE HUMANOIDS. Thus by Cain's day, many of those humanoids were real men and women, possessing the very self-same conscience of Adam, and thus perfectly suitable as a source of eligible wives for Cain. Problem solved.

I'm an OEC by the way...
 
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solid_core

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You raise a valid point. According to the Gospel of John, Jesus Christ is the Word. The Scriptures, according to Luke, all speak about Him, which the disciples only realized when He “opened the books” and then disappeared. The Gospels describe the Gospel from different events; what an extremely literal view might miss is that these minor variations add credibility. If all four Gospels recorded the same event the exact same way, that would actually undermine their authority.
These "minor variations" also change some doctrines completely.

For example "poor" or "poor in spirit". Praying the Lord's Prayer or praying like the Lord's Prayer.
Is also husband who sends his wife away commiting adultery? In one gospel yes, in another one no.

There are many such problems. Common Christians just choose the variant they seem to fit best or simply mix all of them together or do not even know there are differences.
 
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Neogaia777

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These "minor variations" also change some doctrines completely.

Surely they can be reconciled though, or we can at least "try" right...?

So, let's try some, OK...?

For example "poor" or "poor in spirit". Praying the Lord's Prayer or praying like the Lord's Prayer.

With this one I would default to it not meaning just only those who were just only "poor", but those that are "poor in spirit"... although the majority of those probably are "poor" for the most part, considering also how Jesus also said how hard it was for a materially rich man or person to get into heaven or be saved maybe, etc...?

What do you think...?

Is also husband who sends his wife away commiting adultery? In one gospel yes, in another one no.

Which gospels are you referring to...?

I tried to look up a few (Matthew 19) & (Matthew 5:31-32) & (Mark 10:1-12) & some in (1 Corinthians 7)...

At either rate, they seem to say it is permitted on the grounds of adultery and fornication only, and forgivable on the grounds of adultery and fornication only, but is not advised or advisable, etc, and that anyone who does, and marries another, commits, or is guilty of, fornication and/or adultery themselves, etc...

That if they are to depart or separate from one another, that is not advisable to re-marry or get remarried, but that they should seek reconciliation in either or in any case, etc, even with adultery and/or fornication, etc...

What do you think...? How do you read...?

There are many such problems. Common Christians just choose the variant they seem to fit best or simply mix all of them together or do not even know there are differences.

Can you cite some others maybe...?

Thanks,

God Bless!
 
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solid_core

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Can you cite some others maybe...?

For example:

a) Matthew says that a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Jesus normally answers.
Mt 19:16

b) Luke says that a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
And Jesus first rebukes him and then answers.
Lk 18:18
 
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Neogaia777

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For example:

a) Matthew says that a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Jesus normally answers.
Mt 19:16

b) Luke says that a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
And Jesus first rebukes him and then answers.
Lk 18:18
He says something back to him (the man) about Him (Jesus) being or not being "good", (in Luke 18:18) but I don't know if I'd call it a rebuke, just an extra comment...?

How does it/that really change anything about the narratives though...?

Cause those would be the ones I interested in the most, etc...?

What are some of the ones that you think have really caused a divide or been very divisive among christian circles...?

These things, these little differences, are to be expected though right...?

I mean, I think the fact that they are very, very close, yet written by four different people (authors), who may or may not have had each other's gospels or stories, or been around each other when they were written maybe, is still pretty significant in and of itself though, right...? Well, three of them are for the most part, cause John's gospel is just a little bit different, etc, but none of the stories directly conflict ever, right...? And they all pretty much still do tell the same story, right...? And they are very close, right...?

God Bless!
 
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solid_core

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How does it/that really change anything about the narratives though...?

If we agree that Bible is inspired to the level of main points and spiritual truths, then nothing is changed.

If you think that Bible is inspired to every word, then there are obvious problems with it, because many details differ between gospels. And if it is so with gospels, the more with ancient Old testament writings.
 
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Neogaia777

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If we agree that Bible is inspired to the level of main points, then nothing.

If you think that Bible is inspired to every word, then there are obvious problems with it.
I was just wondering if you wanted to discuss or try to unravel some of the major ones that have maybe caused some maybe "major", "divisions" within Christianity or Christian circles, or maybe some that have formed whole completely different denominations or philosophies within Christian circles or not, etc...? Or have had maybe completely different philosophies and/or ideas formed or built around maybe, etc...? You said there were "many" that did that, so I was just wondering is all, etc...?

If you wanted to is all, or that is, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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solid_core

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I was just wondering if you wanted to discuss or try to unravel some of the major ones that have maybe caused some maybe "major", "divisions" within Christianity or Christian circles, or maybe some that have formed whole completely different denominations or philosophies within Christian circles or not, etc...? Or have had maybe completely different philosophies and/or ideas formed or built around maybe, etc...? You said there were "many" that did that, so I was just wondering is all, etc...?

If you wanted to is all, or that is, etc...?

God Bless!
If for example a flat earther or young earther put himself inside a world conspiracy and anti-scientific camp just because he takes every word from ancient Jewish mythologies as literal and inspired, I think its a problem for the American society and its progress and for its internal cohesion.
Not to say that it makes a disservice to the gospel and to the case of Christ.
 
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Neogaia777

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If for example a flat earther or young earther put himself inside a world conspiracy and anti-scientific camp just because he takes every word from ancient Jewish mythologies as literal and inspired, I think its a problem for the American society and its progress and for its internal cohesion.

Maybe...? Is that the way you take it...?

Not to say that it makes a disservice to the gospel and to the case of Christ.

What does...?

A person taking every single specific word, (or words), let alone every single individual letter as specifically literal and specifically inspired...?

God Bless!
 
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BobRyan

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Evening and morning, or morning and evening, could mean the golden years or time of an age,

Until you read the Ex 20 summary of it.

Ex 20:9 "six days you shall labor"..
Ex 20:11 "for in six days the LORD made..." summarizing Gen 2:1-4 again.

No wonder the scholars in Hebrew and OT studies in all world class universities admit to the author's text being written as a literal historic account. Moses was not a darwinist... neither were the newly freed slaved of Egypt as they stood there at Sinai.

Some Bible details so incredibly obvious that even the non-Christian scholars are admitting to them.

(as noted here - Yesterday at 5:51 PM #264 )
 
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BobRyan

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Thats OK, because Bible is not reliable regarding science.

And "yet" the incarnation of Christ, his bodily resurrection, his ascension into heaven, the 7 day creation week are all historic fact.

And of course we have this

Even the Hebrew and OT scholars in all world class universities freely admit that the account for origins in Genesis 1-2 and Ex 20:11 is nothing remotely compatible with evolution's own doctrine on origins. they are as far apart as day and night.

Ex 20 "six days you shall labor...for in six days the LORD made" is so obviously "not" the evolutionism that is so popular today that it goes without saying.

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

Ex 20: "six days you shall labor..."
Ex 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Notice what the top scholars in Hebrew and OT studies are saying in all the world class universities about the basic most obvious features of "the text" of Genesis.

=============================================
Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:


‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that
--the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story

(c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.

Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know."

=====================================

Those guys get "the basics" about "interpretation" and "translation" and "the kind of writing that it is" - stating that this aspect of the discussion is sooooo incredibly obvious and basic that even the agnostic/atheist/lib/left scholars see that one point clearly.

============

When you have blatantly obvious details in the Bible so clear that the Hebrew and OT scholars in all world class universities - plus all bible-believing Christians (those not inclined to toss out the Bible whenever evolutionism demands it) can see the point clearly.. we call that "the obvious part".
 
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Neogaia777

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Until you read the Ex 20 summary of it.

Ex 20:9 "six days you shall labor"..
Ex 20:11 "for in six days the LORD made..." summarizing Gen 2:1-4 again.

No wonder the scholars in Hebrew and OT studies in all world class universities admit to the author's text being written as a literal historic account. Moses was not a darwinist... neither were the newly freed slaved of Egypt as they stood there at Sinai.
:doh:

God Bless!
 
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BobRyan

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And "yet" the incarnation of Christ, his bodily resurrection, his ascension into heaven, the 7 day creation week are all historic fact.

faith in evolutionism allows some parts of the Word of God to be accepted "as reliable" while other parts no matter how obvious are declared "uncertain" if belief in evolutionism does not fit with it

Some points are reliable, some words are uncertain.

Thats OK, because Bible is not reliable regarding science.

So "not reliable science" in the reproducible-in-the-lab science of incarnating God the Son into human form in the virgin birth?

Not "reliable science" in the reproducible-in-the-lab science of a dead person resurrecting?

Not "reliable science" in the reproducible-in-the-lab science of an all-powerful God creating all life on earth in a real 7 day week and then stating explicitly that this is what He did?
 
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BobRyan

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If we agree that Bible is inspired to the level of main points and spiritual truths, then nothing is changed.

If your "main point" becomes the next guy's "nice to have but not important" and that is "the rule" for when to slice and dice the Word of God... pure preference... well you have a problem.

All one needs to do in order to dump some part of scripture .. no matter how obvious it is... is to stick a :doh: at the end. Not exactly "objective".

More objectivity and accountability -- = more accuracy
 
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Halbhh

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That's because many believe in a small God with not enough power to create a whole universe in six days and bring it to full maturity in that amount of time. But that is not the almighty and all-powerful God of the Bible.
I believe in God being more mighty yet than these, and instead being like the actual scripture, which clearly refuses to say how much time passed before verse 2.

Suggesting time itself is not even worth mentioning, for Him!
(have you seen what Peter wrote on this?)

1 blink of an eye, or a billion years -- are these limits for God?

Is a billion or 10 billion years a problem for God?

Not for the God I know from scripture.
 
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BobRyan

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I believe in God being more mighty yet than these, and instead being like the actual scripture, which clearly refuses to say how much time passed before verse 2.

Suggesting time itself is not even worth mentioning, for Him!
(have you seen what Peter wrote on this?)

1 blink of an eye, or a billion years -- are these limits for God?

Is a billion or 10 billion years a problem for God?

Not for the God I know from scripture.

God did not write Genesis in the form "what is a problem for Me". He can choose a 7 seconds, or 7 trillion years or 7 days. As the sovereign all-powerful God -- it is His choice not ours.

And He made one.

A choice that does not sit well with belief in blind-faith-evolutionism for one's doctrine on origins.
 
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Halbhh

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God did not write Genesis in the form "what is a problem for Me". He can choose a 7 seconds, or 7 trillion years or 7 days. As the sovereign all-powerful God -- it is His choice not ours.

And He made one.

A choice that does not sit well with belief in blind-faith-evolutionism for one's doctrine on origins.
If you really listen, you will hear and notice an amazing and wondrous thing: He does not say how long passed after the Universe came into being....until the moment we arrive at in verse 2. It takes...faith to accept that, to me.


1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.


Hallelujah!

We can notice that time itself is of little to no matter for Him.

It's like Peter wrote. Even a thousand years are as if only a day. As if little time at all.

This unknown length of time between the creating of the Universe -- the entire Universe!! -- until at some time....the Spirit came to the newly form(ing) Earth, and moved over the waters......

Unknown time.

I think this is because time itself even is nothing to Him, practically. To the Eternal One. Time is of no matter.

It really would not matter how long it seems to us here in these mortal bodies.

A billion years is very intimidating to us.

But not to Him!
 
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jahel

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Reminds me of this verse .. Like a hen brooding over Jerusalem, how He would have loved to cover them in His wings, but they would have none of it.

It’s the Holy Spirit that broods over the water, at the beginning, at His first coming ...
 
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Neogaia777

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Updated, slightly edited/modified version from my original post on this...

Genesis 1 to Genesis 2:4:

Day 1 and 2- The creation of the universe, formation of stars/planets, solar systems, etc, the initial formation of the earth as a planet, creation and separating of "dimensions" like the separating of the Heavenly realms and/or dimensions, from the physical ones, etc, and/or beginnings of the atmosphere and beginnings of the seas on day 2, etc... Whatever or however you interpret the "separating and dividing of waters from waters" to mean, etc, with the one above being called "heaven", etc...

Day 3- Dry land appears and is made apart from the sea or the seas, etc, earth is very "volcanic" and the sky is still dark and covered with lots of clouds of dust and ash, some light shining through but not much yet, further formation of the atmosphere, and the very beginnings of very simple, extremely primitive plant life, in the form of algae, proteins and primitive bacteria, etc, primordial ooze, etc, by the ends of day 3 that is going to become more complex in Day 4...

Day 4- Sky begins to clear up, and the volcanic activity on the earth begins to settle down a bit, plant life, now having more light, begins to become more complex forms of plant life, the "revealing" of the sun and moon and stars, etc, on the earth due to the skies clearing up, etc...

Day 5- The age or era of sea life, sea creatures and sea animals begin to come about and become more complex by the beginning of day 6, plant life continuing to evolve and become more complex in or on both the land and in the sea, etc, no land animals yet, etc...

Day 6- The age of land animals and man, land animals come about for the first time (from the sea creatures), and become more complex, till they eventually lead to man coming about, and the fall of man happens, etc, we are still in day 6 now till the results of the fall are fixed or restored, then will begin day 7...

Day 7- The age or era of the rule and reign of Christ on earth from Heaven, or Heaven and earth being one (again) results of the fall or consequences of the fall are restored or fixed or whatever, (we go back to being vegetarians, etc), and this age will last until the end of the earth and the universe as we know it, etc...


Adam and Eve could have been a special creation, in a selected by God specific region or specific area in the earth on or in or during day 6, the Garden of Eden, etc, then were cast out to be among the rest of the "evolved species", etc, two races or species possibly, etc, Cain could have been the first one to interbreed or intermix with these maybe, possibly, or the whole story could just be an allegory, revealing many, many truths to us about our species and the "spirits", and the spiritual, and mankind, and mankind's relationship with God, etc...

The way to resolve the issue of plants sating to come about on day 3 in Genesis 1, and there have not been any kind of vegetation sprouting up from the ground yet in the Garden of Eden on day 6 when Adam was made, is that, if the Garden of Eden was a literal Garden and special set apart from the rest of the world special creation, is that plants may have not been made to grow or come about yet "in that specific region" yet, during the time it was made and/or set apart on or during day 6 yet, but then was by God when He made Adam and put him there...

The question came up about the whole "evening and morning" thing, and I forgot to address it, so I said this:

Evening and morning, or morning and evening, could mean the golden years or time of an age, and then the dark times or dark era of an age, or when it was prospering and thriving and when it was falling and failing and was about over or ended or was on it's decline, etc...

"Cycles" IOW's, the turning of a tide or the change of an era, it happens in and with any system of things, or era or age of thing or things...

God Bless!
 
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