What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

[BobRyan]

The canon of scriptures in both the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church contain 73 books.

The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

 

[HTacianas]

The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

The original Christian canon follows the Septuagint, which contains "those books" you mention. The Septuagint is an older canon than the modern Jewish canon. It was compiled by Jews for Jews and has always been the Christian old testament.

 

[BobRyan]

The original Christian canon follows the Septuagint, which contains "those books" you mention. The Septuagint is an older canon than the modern Jewish canon. It was compiled by Jews for Jews and has always been the Christian old testament.

As Josephus pointed out in the first century A.D. - the Hebrew canon is fixed 400 years before the time of Christ as one canonized set - kept in the temple and "unchanged" long before the Septuagint and remained unchanged long after it.

Jerome admitted to this same problem when translating the Vulgate.

And the Jews confirm this fact about their own Jewish text to this very day.

How is this even remotely confusing?

 

[HTacianas]

As Josephus pointed out in the first century A.D. - the Hebrew canon is fixed 400 years before the time of Christ as one canonized set - kept in the temple and "unchanged" long before the Septuagint and remained unchanged long after it.

Jerome admitted to this same problem when translating the Vulgate.

And the Jews confirm this fact about their own Jewish text to this very day.

How is this even remotely confusing?

Josephus wrote in the late first century at nearly the same time that the modern Jewish canon was formalized. There was no formal canon prior to that time. You'll often hear of a supposed-by-some Council of Jamnia believed to have assembled a formal canon long after the destruction of the temple. That eventually became recognized as the modern Jewish canon. As a formal collection, it is newer than most of the new testament. Google "rabbi Akiva" and you'll find some information on its establishment.

The Septuagint has been used by Christianity since the beginning. All of its books were contained even in protestant bibles until many publishers finally removed them around one hundred years ago.

 

[JohnAshton]

None

What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

 

[SkyWriting]

The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

According to scripture, none of it is required reading.

 

[Dave-W]

The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. T

Actually that is 22 books, the same number as the Hebrew alphabet.

 

[Dave-W]

Romans 3 (NASB)
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

 

[DamianWarS]

The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

and even odder part is some NT authors quote from these rejected scriptures

 

[DamianWarS]

Actually that is 22 books, the same number as the Hebrew alphabet.

it's the same content, just organized differently

 

[Dave-W]

it's the same content, just organized differently

Correct - the TRUE BIBLICAL organization: Torah, then Prophets, and then the Writings.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”​

If our Lord used that order, it is good enough for me.

 

[BobRyan]

and even odder part is some NT authors quote from these rejected scriptures

They also quote from pagan poets in the NT -- does not make those poets "scripture"
Titus 1: 12 "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

And they quote statements on pagan altars
Acts 17
23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Does not mean that is to be included in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Josephus wrote in the late first century at nearly the same time that the modern Jewish canon was formalized. There was no formal canon prior to that time.

Not According to Josephus at that time. He stated that their text was known and fully canonized by 400 years BEFORE his time.

And Christ also taught "from ALL the scriptures". Luke 24

Even Jerome when translating from the actual OT text to the Latin Vulgate admitted that those apocryphal texts were not canonical.. The Jews maintain the same statement as Josephus that only those texts fully canonized 400 years before the time of Christ are scripture.

Who is to tell the Jews that they must change what their own text contains? Christians?

Christians are at best - maintaining the Christian NT and surprise surprise.. no disagreement on that text.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

and even odder part is some NT authors quote from these rejected scriptures

< shrugs > why is that at all considered odd?

I think the best other example in the NT authors is that the "Cretians" are quoted in the NT.... that does not ever make the Cretans good, right, helpful, nor saved. >>

"The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slothful bellies. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, has said"

 

[solid_core]

As Josephus pointed out in the first century A.D. - the Hebrew canon is fixed 400 years before the time of Christ as one canonized set - kept in the temple and "unchanged" long before the Septuagint and remained unchanged long after it.

Jerome admitted to this same problem when translating the Vulgate.

And the Jews confirm this fact about their own Jewish text to this very day.

How is this even remotely confusing?

This is too simplified.

In fact, various sects and groups of judaism had various libraries of books, different canons. No official one that would apply to all.

Many books are lost today, but some are found in Septuagint, some are found in Dead Sea Scrolls etc.

 

[BobRyan]

The original Christian canon follows the Septuagint, which contains "those books" you mention. The Septuagint is an older canon than the modern Jewish canon. It was compiled by Jews for Jews and has always been the Christian old testament.

As Josephus pointed out in the first century A.D. - the Hebrew canon is fixed 400 years before the time of Christ as one canonized set - kept in the temple and "unchanged" long before the Septuagint and remained unchanged long after it.

Jerome admitted to this same problem when translating the Vulgate.

And the Jews confirm this fact about their own Jewish text to this very day.

How is this even remotely confusing?

This is too simplified.

In fact, various sects and groups of judaism had various libraries of books, different canons. .

None of them recognized as having authority as Josephus points out - only the ones kept as the canon in the actual temple were agreed to have had authority and that remained unchanged for 400 years to that point in time according to their own historian.

If someone thinks the Jewish bible has the apocrypha they need to make that case to the Jews.

 

[BobRyan]

Many books are lost today, but some are found in Septuagint, some are found in Dead Sea Scrolls etc.

Your point is of the form "if the texts existed then they must have been included in the Jewish canon" - Josephus points out the flaw in that suggestion by pointing to the fact that only the authorized Jewish canon was being preserved in the temple. He did not argue that other texts "do not exist"

 

[solid_core]

Your point is of the form "if the texts existed then they must have been included in the Jewish canon"

There were many "Jewish canons", therefore there was actually none. Josephus might like one of the canons used by some Jewish group, other Jewish groups would disagree.

There was no "Jewish canon" in the meaning "accepted generally by all Jews".

Septuagint was actually the closest thing to "used by all". Thats why apostles used it and quoted mostly from it in the New Testament.

 

[DamianWarS]

Correct - the TRUE BIBLICAL organization: Torah, then Prophets, and then the Writings.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”​

If our Lord used that order, it is good enough for me.

I think you missed the point if that's what you get out if Christ's words here.

 

[Dave-W]

I think you missed the point if that's what you get out if Christ's words here.

No - what i say is definitely a side point to the conversation. BUT it does show our Lord took that organization and approved of it.