What Christians have authority over Jews and the Jewish Bible - Jewish texts?

Yarddog

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The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".
No Christian Church decided to do anything with the Jewish text. The early Church used the Septuagint as their Hebrew Scriptures. This was used by the Jews of Egypt and other Greek speaking Jewish communities.

The Jews of Israel used the Hebrew texts but there was no Canon until Circe 125 AD.

As for Jerome, he is just a translator with no authority so it is just an opinion.
 
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Robin Mauro

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They also quote from pagan poets in the NT -- does not make those poets "scripture"
Titus 1: 12 "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

And they quote statements on pagan altars
Acts 17
23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Does not mean that is to be included in the Hebrew Bible.



True. A number of texts quoted in the NT - that are not by that quote alone - turning the source text from which it is quoted - into scripture.



Good point. Just because some text is or is-not also quoted in the NT does not determine if that "other" text is in fact scripture.
But in the examples you gave Paul explains their context...well, not the cretans one. But when Jesus used them, they were used at face value, as scripture.
 
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Robin Mauro

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A lot of people all through history "almost made a mistake" of one sort or another. Thank God He guided the OT and NT writers.

Thankfully as Josephus points out in the first century A.D. -- the "almost a mistake" almost-made many centuries later was in fact already "settled" for the Jews 400 years B.C.
That is not my understanding. Those books were in fact included, historically.
And wasn't Josephus the one who was a traitor? I need to look him up again, it's been a number of years since I studied him, but wasn't he the one who made a suicide pact and then was the only one who didn't follow through? If I am remembering correctly, I remember wondering why people put so much weight into what he said/wrote.
 
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GingerBeer

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It may be true that there are some Christians who think they are in charge of what Moses wrote and should have written or if his writings are scripture.
Catholic & Orthodox Christians are the majority.
 
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klutedavid

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The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".
2 Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

The names Jannes and Jambres are not mentioned in the Old Testament text.

So what text was Paul quoting from?
 
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DamianWarS

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No - what i say is definitely a side point to the conversation. BUT it does show our Lord took that organization and approved of it.
I get why you see that, but I fail to see the benefit of such an approval. Christ had to say it in some sort of order but to say he was explicitly authorizing the order seems to be a stretch. Maybe in messianic circles, this is easily accepted but for me, I would need more support. Not that I'm against such an order but how the books are organized seems somewhat arbitrary to me. Can you perhaps explain why such an order is needed?
 
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GingerBeer

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The Catholics added seven Old Testament books including two books of Maccabees.
Christians, since they were all Catholics in the first century, didn't add any books to the old testament but they did write books that later generations canonised into the new testament. The old testament that Christians canonised included the books that you say were added by Catholics. The fact is that the books were all part of the manuscripts that Christians used. They were canonised in the fourth century AD when nearly all Christians were called Catholics, there were some who split away from the majority over the council of Chalcedon's statement about the incarnation and the human and divine nature of Jesus Christ.
 
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DamianWarS

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They also quote from pagan poets in the NT -- does not make those poets "scripture"
Titus 1: 12 "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

And they quote statements on pagan altars
Acts 17
23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Does not mean that is to be included in the Hebrew Bible.

these passages are examples of contextualization, another example would be Acts 17:27-28 which is a way to reach your audience using resources they already know (like using the Quran to point to Christ... that sort of thing). in Jude, he quotes from the Assumption of Moses and from the book of Enoch, what is his contextual purpose for doing so if Jude himself did not consider these inspired texts? Who was his audience and why would they value such works that he would need to quote them?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Who was his audience and why would they value such works that he would need to quote them?
It is written/ breathed/ inspired in God's Word that God was the One Who breathed / inspired the men He chose to write as He inspired them what to write and when to write it and to whom. Nothing left to their own initiative nor to the flesh, according to God's Own Word/ Plan and Purpose.
 
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DamianWarS

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It is written/ breathed/ inspired in God's Word that God was the One Who breathed / inspired the men He chose to write as He inspired them what to write and when to write it and to whom. Nothing left to their own initiative nor to the flesh, according to God's Own Word/ Plan and Purpose.
but this has nothing to do with the order.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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visionary

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There were many "Jewish canons", therefore there was actually none. Josephus might like one of the canons used by some Jewish group, other Jewish groups would disagree.

There was no "Jewish canon" in the meaning "accepted generally by all Jews".

Septuagint was actually the closest thing to "used by all". Thats why apostles used it and quoted mostly from it in the New Testament.
Jewish scribe-scholars who worked between the 6th and 10th centuries CE, based primarily in early medieval Palestine in the cities of Tiberias and Jerusalem, as well as in Iraq on the Masoretic Text. Each group compiled a system of pronunciation and grammatical guides in the form of diacritical notes on the external form of the biblical text in an attempt to standardize the pronunciation, paragraph and verse divisions and cantillation of the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh, for the worldwide Jewish community.

The Masoretic Text is the authoritative Hebrew and Aramaic text of the 24 books of Tanakh for Rabbinic Judaism. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown the Masoretic Text to be nearly identical in consonant text to some texts of the Tanakh dating from 200 [BCE] A recent finding of a short Leviticus fragment, recovered from the ancient En-Gedi Scroll, carbon-dated to the 3rd or 4th century AD, is completely identical with the Masoretic Text.

The Masoretic Text was used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles such as the King James Version and American Standard Version and (after 1943) for some versions of Catholic Bibles, replacing the Vulgate translation, although the Vulgate had itself already been revised in light of the Masoretic text in the 1500s. Masoretic Text - Wikipedia
 
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solid_core

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Jewish scribe-scholars who worked between the 6th and 10th centuries CE, based primarily in early medieval Palestine in the cities of Tiberias and Jerusalem, as well as in Iraq on the Masoretic Text. Each group compiled a system of pronunciation and grammatical guides in the form of diacritical notes on the external form of the biblical text in an attempt to standardize the pronunciation, paragraph and verse divisions and cantillation of the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh, for the worldwide Jewish community.

The Masoretic Text is the authoritative Hebrew and Aramaic text of the 24 books of Tanakh for Rabbinic Judaism. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown the Masoretic Text to be nearly identical in consonant text to some texts of the Tanakh dating from 200 [BCE] A recent finding of a short Leviticus fragment, recovered from the ancient En-Gedi Scroll, carbon-dated to the 3rd or 4th century AD, is completely identical with the Masoretic Text.

The Masoretic Text was used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles such as the King James Version and American Standard Version and (after 1943) for some versions of Catholic Bibles, replacing the Vulgate translation, although the Vulgate had itself already been revised in light of the Masoretic text in the 1500s. Masoretic Text - Wikipedia

Masoretic text is one of many lines of Scriptures. This one was chosen by Jews as their "official" one after Christianity. They have chosen the line that was as different from Christian teachings and New Testament quotations as possible.

Dead Sea scrolls show that Isaiah used by people in Qumran was quite close to masoretic text, but for example Jeremiah was closer to Septuagint. So its not as simple as you say. Also, people of Qumran are not our authority, so its just a witness that several lines of Scriptures are ancient, but their percentage in Qumran is not relevant at all.
 
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visionary

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Most of the Qumran fragments can be classified as being closer to the Masoretic text than to any other text group that has survived. According to Lawrence Schiffman, 60% can be classed as being of proto-Masoretic type, and a further 20% Qumran style with a basis in proto-Masoretic texts, compared to 5% proto-Samaritan type, 5% Septuagintal type, and 10% non-aligned. Masoretic Text - Wikipedia
 
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AlexDTX

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The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

Your thread title and the content of your OP confuses me. What are you addressing? The title made me think of the weight some believers put in the non-canonical books such as Enoch, Assumption of Moses and the book of Jasher. Or are you addressing the Apocryphal books included in the Catholic Bible?

But the content of you OP does not address this and states the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. What is your point?

This article is an example of what I said.
Babylon Shall Fall - CORRUPTION, USA
 
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