Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

[Major1]

That

I feel I'm just repeating myself. Also I said that I was leaving this thread and Major1 called me back. Ciao

That is because you are so easy to talk to!

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

It really is not that hard.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness".

Deut. 4:2...……...
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you."

Prov. 30:5-6...……….
5 “Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Because there are many books that claim to be divinely given, a casual or gullible attitude toward them can result in confusion and eventually destruction. The Bible is complete, completely trustworthy and sufficient to completely answer anything we need to know for eternal salvation or practical wisdom concerning our relationships, morality, character of conduct and much more.

Yes, all Scripture is God-breathed. Now, WHERE, EXACTLY in Scripture, BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE, does it EXPLICITLY STATE WHAT constitutes Scripture. Book, Chapter, Verse, explicit listing of contents.

Merely chatting about the nature of Scripture is not the same as explicitly stating what constitutes Scripture. Where is that explicitly stated within Scripture? Book, chapter, verse.

 

[Major1]

Okay, then one needs to absolutely correct in regards to what is and is not in Scripture if one must apply Sola Scriptura. Therefore, the only valid source for the contents of Scripture must be within Scripture, itself. Therefore, we must find the explicit statement of what is to be in Scripture entirely within Scripture. If we must go outside Scripture to define what is within Scripture, then we must reject Sola Scriptura.

Therefore, we must answer the question: Where, in Scripture, without reference to any non-Scriptural source, are the contents of Scripture explicitly laid out and defined.

What book? What chapters? What verses? Please enlighten us all.

You are asking the same thing and you are not reading and understanding the answer given to you.

2 Tim. 3:16 tells us EXPLICITY the SOURCE of ALL Scriptures...…….
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

What words could God have used instead of...….
"ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD" that would allow them to be better understood??????

ALL seems to me to mean ALL!

Ignoring the law of "IMPLICATION' and Following your line of thinking....then will you please state the Book, chapter and verse where we can all find the word "Trinity"?

Where is that teaching explicitly laid out and defined?

 

[Major1]

Yes, all Scripture is God-breathed. Now, WHERE, EXACTLY in Scripture, BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE, does it EXPLICITLY STATE WHAT constitutes Scripture. Book, Chapter, Verse, explicit listing of contents.

Merely chatting about the nature of Scripture is not the same as explicitly stating what constitutes Scripture. Where is that explicitly stated within Scripture? Book, chapter, verse.

Jude 3 (ESV)

"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

Since our faith is defined by Scripture, Jude is essentially saying that Scripture was given once for the benefit of all Christians.

Romans 15:4..............
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Psalm 19:7-11 .............
The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

 

[Major1]

Yes, all Scripture is God-breathed. Now, WHERE, EXACTLY in Scripture, BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE, does it EXPLICITLY STATE WHAT constitutes Scripture. Book, Chapter, Verse, explicit listing of contents.

Merely chatting about the nature of Scripture is not the same as explicitly stating what constitutes Scripture. Where is that explicitly stated within Scripture? Book, chapter, verse.

You asked......
"What constitutes the Word of God"?

That would be WORDS! GOD gave His WORDS to man through direct visits, dreams and visions. Those men made a record of those events and we call that the Word of God or if you prefer, the Bible.

The Bible is the account of God’s action in the world, and his purpose with all creation. The writing of the Bible took place over sixteen centuries and is the work of over forty human authors.

The Bible, in each book tells us all that we are sinners and need a Saviour and that Saviour is the Lord Jesus Christ who is seen in every book of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

You asked......
"What constitutes the Word of God"?

That would be WORDS! GOD gave His WORDS to man through direct visits, dreams and visions. Those men made a record of those events and we call that the Word of God or if you prefer, the Bible.

The Bible is the account of God’s action in the world, and his purpose with all creation. The writing of the Bible took place over sixteen centuries and is the work of over forty human authors.

The Bible, in each book tells us all that we are sinners and need a Saviour and that Saviour is the Lord Jesus Christ who is seen in every book of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

All well and good, but how were these ifted from other writings purporting to be such "words"? Was the list provided within Scripture?

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Jude 3 (ESV)

"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

Since our faith is defined by Scripture, Jude is essentially saying that Scripture was given once for the benefit of all Christians.

Romans 15:4..............
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Psalm 19:7-11 .............
The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

All well and good. It does not answer the question. Where is the explicit list?

 

[Major1]

That scripture is inconclusive to support the idea that all prophecy and revelation will cease brother. Your making a huge assumption here. We cannot presume to know God’s intention concerning His revelations based on this passage of scripture. I believe you are adding into it more than it’s actually saying.

You are kidding me.....right????

1 Corinthians 13:8...........
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Please tell me what you think the words.....
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; ".

What do you think the word CEASE means?????

Then there is …….. "where there are tongues, they will be stilled".

What do you think that the words.....THEY WILL BE STILLED---mean?

What does the words …….."where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

What do you say that "IT WILL PASS AWAY MEAN"???

You see, I am not assuming anything at all. I AM the one who is believing exactly what the Scriptures says and NOT what I want it to say my dear brother.

All of those things are temporary….Partial.
Actually the only thing to consider in your comment is verse #10.........
" but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

The original Greek says the word Perfect is TELEION and literally means ..."COMPLETE". It is in the NEUTER so it demands that the Perfect must be a THING and not person.

The only two perfect things are Jesus Christ and the Bible. Since the grammer will not allow it to be Jesus then the only thing left is the Bible.

Take the time to do the study and I believe you will see what I am saying.

When the Bible was COMPLETED the sign gifts given to the Apostle eneded with the death of John.

​

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

If Sola Scriptura is valid, then the list of what constitutes Scripture must be within Scripture and not a later addition, through council, consultation, reason, logic, or tradition. That certain books have been traditionally gathered together is just a tradition, after all.

 

[Major1]

All well and good, but how were these ifted from other writings purporting to be such "words"? Was the list provided within Scripture?

With all due respect, you got the correct answer but it is not what you wanted to hear.

The literal words on the pages of the Scriptures is proof that God's Word is exactly what God what said. The proof is in the pudding.

Now the question must be......WHY do YOU think that there has to be a table of contents or a list provided????

The Bible was written by men (40) over 1500 years as they heard from God. When do you think that a list should have been included when the actual words given in 2 Timothy 3:16 is...…."ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED".

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

With all due respect, you got the correct answer but it is not what you wanted to hear.

The literal words on the pages of the Scriptures is proof that God's Word is exactly what God what said. The proof is in the pudding.

Now the question must be......WHY do YOU think that there has to be a table of contents or a list provided????

The Bible was written by men (40) over 1500 years as they heard from God. When do you think that a list should have been included when the actual words given in 2 Timothy 3:16 is...…."ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED".

All Scritpure is god breathed. Yes. SO WHAT? Now, give the EXACT STATMENT OF WHAT CONSTITUTES SCRIPTURE! Which books? WHICH BOOKS! And it must be listed within Scripture or it CANNOT BE SOLA SCRIPTURA.

It is a simple, FACTUAL question that can be answered simply by providing the SPECIFIC LIST AS STATED WITHIN SCRIPTURE. Where is that list?

If that list is NOT provided WITHIN SCRIPTURE, then the structure and contents of Scripture had to be determined OUTSIDE Scripture, thus innately invalidating Sola Scriptura.

Martin Luther removed the Book of James from his version of Scripture, after all...

 

[Major1]

If Sola Scriptura is valid, then the list of what constitutes Scripture must be within Scripture and not a later addition, through council, consultation, reason, logic, or tradition. That certain books have been traditionally gathered together is just a tradition, after all.

WHY?

Why must there be a list of some kind???

You keep asking the same question and seem to be unable to grasp....
"ALL SCRIPTURE"!

Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with a list of anything. It only says that what God has said is ALL that man needs to be saved. Sola Scriptura only accepts the Bible as what God said literally without adding anything to its understanding.

 

[Albion]

If Sola Scriptura is valid, then the list of what constitutes Scripture must be within Scripture and not a later addition, through council, consultation, reason, logic, or tradition.

No, Sola Scriptura is valid so long as the writings that are accepted as the inspired word of God are just that--revelation as contrasted with the body of religious writings that are not inspired (the Gnostic Gospels and the Apocrypha, for example).

 

[Albion]

And it must be listed within Scripture or it CANNOT BE SOLA SCRIPTURA.

That's interesting in a way, but it's only a personally-held theory.

All Scritpure is god breathed. Yes. SO WHAT?

So what is more authoritative than a revelation from God himself???

 

[Major1]

All Scritpure is god breathed. Yes. SO WHAT? Now, give the EXACT STATMENT OF WHAT CONSTITUTES SCRIPTURE! Which books? WHICH BOOKS! And it must be listed within Scripture or it CANNOT BE SOLA SCRIPTURA.

It is a simple, FACTUAL question that can be answered simply by providing the SPECIFIC LIST AS STATED WITHIN SCRIPTURE. Where is that list?

If that list is NOT provided WITHIN SCRIPTURE, then the structure and contents of Scripture had to be determined OUTSIDE Scripture, thus innately invalidating Sola Scriptura.

Martin Luther removed the Book of James from his version of Scripture, after all...

I do not agree and reject your thesis because it is only your opinion and is not rooted in factual truth.

What sola scriptura means is that the scriptures are the highest and final authority. Sola scriptura means that an argument founded on experience, reason, emotion, history, science, or the teachings of past Christians, cannot be used to trump an argument founded on scripture. But it does not mean that the scriptures are perfectly clear, nor that Christians will never have disagreements. Sola scriptura does not promise that we can answer every question, but it does say that when we submit ourselves to listen to God's revealed word in the Bible, that God will speak authoritatively to us through those words as the Spirit guides our understanding.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are kidding me.....right????

1 Corinthians 13:8...........
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Please tell me what you think the words.....
"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; ".

What do you think the word CEASE means?????

Then there is …….. "where there are tongues, they will be stilled".

What do you think that the words.....THEY WILL BE STILLED---mean?

What does the words …….."where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

What do you say that "IT WILL PASS AWAY MEAN"???

You see, I am not assuming anything at all. I AM the one who is believing exactly what the Scriptures says and NOT what I want it to say my dear brother.

All of those things are temporary….Partial.
Actually the only thing to consider in your comment is verse #10.........
" but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

The original Greek says the word Perfect is TELEION and literally means ..."COMPLETE". It is in the NEUTER so it demands that the Perfect must be a THING and not person.

The only two perfect things are Jesus Christ and the Bible. Since the grammer will not allow it to be Jesus then the only thing left is the Bible.

Take the time to do the study and I believe you will see what I am saying.

When the Bible was COMPLETED the sign gifts given to the Apostle eneded with the death of John.

​

The passage says where there is prophecy what about where there is not prophecy yet? This does not mean that no one will ever prophecize ever again. Your reaching for something that isn’t there. There’s not enough evidence to support that after the scriptures are written no one will ever prophecize or receive revelation from God. Revelation 11:3 is proof that you are wrong sir.

Look at the end times in revelation

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

I do not agree and reject your thesis because it is only your opinion and is not rooted in factual truth.

What sola scriptura means is that the scriptures are the highest and final authority. Sola scriptura means that an argument founded on experience, reason, emotion, history, science, or the teachings of past Christians, cannot be used to trump an argument founded on scripture. But it does not mean that the scriptures are perfectly clear, nor that Christians will never have disagreements. Sola scriptura does not promise that we can answer every question, but it does say that when we submit ourselves to listen to God's revealed word in the Bible, that God will speak authoritatively to us through those words as the Spirit guides our understanding.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

I do not agree and reject your thesis because it is only your opinion and is not rooted in factual truth.

What sola scriptura means is that the scriptures are the highest and final authority. Sola scriptura means that an argument founded on experience, reason, emotion, history, science, or the teachings of past Christians, cannot be used to trump an argument founded on scripture. But it does not mean that the scriptures are perfectly clear, nor that Christians will never have disagreements. Sola scriptura does not promise that we can answer every question, but it does say that when we submit ourselves to listen to God's revealed word in the Bible, that God will speak authoritatively to us through those words as the Spirit guides our understanding.

Scripture is merely highest authority? That admits a valid place for holy tradition, as subservient to Scripture. That's not Scripture alone.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not agree and reject your thesis because it is only your opinion and is not rooted in factual truth.

What sola scriptura means is that the scriptures are the highest and final authority. Sola scriptura means that an argument founded on experience, reason, emotion, history, science, or the teachings of past Christians, cannot be used to trump an argument founded on scripture. But it does not mean that the scriptures are perfectly clear, nor that Christians will never have disagreements. Sola scriptura does not promise that we can answer every question, but it does say that when we submit ourselves to listen to God's revealed word in the Bible, that God will speak authoritatively to us through those words as the Spirit guides our understanding.

That is not sola scriptura (Bible alone) what you are referring to is called prima scriptura (Bible above all). The Catholic Church has always taught prima scriptures they simply rejected sola scriptura. The Bible has always been the ultimate authority on Catholic teachings. This does not mean that every teaching must come from the Bible it means that every teaching cannot contradict the Bible. Sola scriptura is rejected because the Bible was never the only source of God’s word. As I’ve said many times God has spoken thru men by devine revelation since creation which is exactly how we received the scriptures. As I have proved to you in Revelation prophecy has not ended with the compilation of the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Scripture is merely highest authority? That admits a valid place for holy tradition, as subservient to Scripture. That's not Scripture alone.

It means highest of all when it comes to determining essential dogma. That is God's realm. No one is saying that Scripture Alone holds the key to knowing how to light the church candles.

Custom and Reason are not worthless; they can provide answers to all sorts of questions that affect church life, but they are not equal to God's word when it comes to us rightly knowing God's will and intentions for us--which is what this is all about.