The ethics of voting for Donald Trump

[dzheremi]

This is embarrassing to admit, but back when I was still Roman Catholic, I did attempt to go to confession for voting for Obama (1st term). I explained that I had read in RC sources (it might have been the diocese's Catholic voter guide; I can't remember) that we are to vote in such a way that our vote saves and/or preserves the most lives possible, and Obama had campaigned in part on ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which had taken many lives on all sides (and I had some relatives and friends who were fighting in them, so that was also a motivation, if I can be completely honest). So I voted for him thinking that this was in conformity with that principle, and it was afterwards that it began to gnaw at me, because of course he was not planning on doing anything much to reduce or outlaw the number of abortions in the USA or globally. The thing is, that number is so staggeringly, disturbingly high that if we were to apply that principle (vote to save the most lives possible) to our voting, then does not not effectively turn all Roman Catholics into "single issue" voters, as there is no single cause of death of innocents that is greater in terms of the sheer number than the continued legality of abortion? How could anyone ever vote based on any other calculation, then?

The good father listened to me, obviously concerned that this was weighing very heavily on me, and then after I had calmed down told me, no, Catholics don't have to be "single issue voters", but we do have to keep in mind that our vote has real world consequences, hence we ought to register our opposition to all forms of the murder of innocents (i.e., not just abortion but also unjust war, violent crime, unjust application of the death penalty, etc).

I will admit that this answer only gave me a tiny bit of comfort, because I felt like it wasn't definitive enough. I see now that the good father was trying to tiptoe very carefully so as to not effectively tell me how to vote, which I can appreciate now with some distance from the situation. Still, it remains an open issue of contention among Catholics, as is evidenced by documents such as those found and posted by Isilwen.

(This happened in Eugene, Oregon in 2008, if anyone is curious about my former Catholic bona fides, so that I hopefully won't be painted as an 'anti-Catholic' when I'm anything but. My father of confession there was one Fr. Augustine Hilander, who I still hold very deeply in my heart to this day, though on this particular day if I remember correctly he was not available and so it would've been whichever priest served alongside him at that time, whose name I cannot even in the slightest bit remember.)

We ought to pray that the Lord move the hearts of the women who may be thinking of procuring an abortion (and any men or other women in their lives who are encouraging them to), so that they may turn away from this decision that, even though legal, represents the murder of an innocent life. Lord have mercy upon everyone who is put in such a horrific situation.

 

[Rev Life]

You need to preface that with in your opinion that is the number one issue of our day.

To me, healthcare is the number one issue of our day that far exceeds the need to overturn Roe v. Wade.

People die from natural causes all the time. Is it a tragedy if someone dies because they couldn’t afford the healthcare they needed? Yes, absolutely. But everyone has to die. Some of us will live long lives, others shorter lives. Ultimately, death is certain for us all. But what about the unborn? They aren’t getting a chance at life in the first place. If someone in his mid to late 50s dies from a condition that couldn’t be treated due to his inability to afford adequate healthcare, it is indeed a sad thing. But at least he had a chance to live life and experience life—an opportunity that has been denied to tens of millions of unborn babies because of legal abortion. Overturning Roe v. Wade is undoubtedly more important than reforming our healthcare system.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know why we can't or shouldn't work at doing both.

Perhaps if we had more comprehensive and affordable health care (in addition to child care), women would not see the need to choose between having a child and whatever other goals they may have that they feel having that child would get in the way of.

 

[Isilwen]

Overturning Roe v. Wade is undoubtedly more important than reforming our healthcare system.

Again, your opinion, one that I do not share.

 

[Isilwen]

Perhaps if we had more comprehensive and affordable health care (in addition to child care), women would not see the need to choose between having a child and whatever other goals they may have that they feel having that child would get in the way of.

That is a good possibility.

 

[Sparagmos]

There have been 60 million abortions since Roe v Wade.

As Christians it is our duty to seek justice for the unborn. It is an uphill battle in this wicked society but a battle we have to fight.


This is correct, except the Supreme Court legislates from the bench. The best thing to do is pray all the sinners involved in this disgusting system and that God will deliver us from it.

You’re not really responding to my comment or others’ comments, just repeating that abortion is bad. Preventing unwanted pregnancy is the best way to prevent abortion, not punishing people who perform them. Yet few pro-lifers support the measures that are known to be effective at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

You’re not really responding to my comment or others’ comments, just repeating that abortion is bad. Preventing unwanted pregnancy is the best way to prevent abortion, not punishing people who perform them. Yet few pro-lifers support the measures that are known to be effective at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Such as?

There are no such measures. People should humble themselves before God and accept their fate. Child sacrifice is worship of the devil.

 

[Isilwen]

Child sacrifice is worship of the devil

Abortion is not child sacrifice.

A whole lot more goes into child sacrifice than what happens during an abortion.

 

[coffee4u]

You’re not really responding to my comment or others’ comments, just repeating that abortion is bad. Preventing unwanted pregnancy is the best way to prevent abortion, not punishing people who perform them. Yet few pro-lifers support the measures that are known to be effective at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Many of the 'preventatives' also cause abortions, that is why.

It isn't just about abortion laws, but health overhaul. Sorry but the US has the worst health care system in the Western world, it's appalling. Support for parents (not just mothers but fathers too) And other things in place that says you care for children. Recently I found out that the US doesn't even have parenting rooms as a standard facility in most shopping centres. I had used this word to a friend with small children, an American, who asked me what that was. When I explained it was a toilet facility with a large toilet and a tiny toilet in one room, another room had changing benches and in larger ones you can often find an easy chair and curtain for feeding mothers and sometimes a playpen area for toys and she was as gobsmacked as I was that the US doesn't have these. So I said you at least have a parent room with a changing table that pulls down from the wall? She said not even that at her local shops. I asked her how she was supposed to change her babies nappy (diaper) and she said in the car! It's small things like this that say American's really don't value children or parents.

 

[Albion]

Overturning Roe v. Wade is undoubtedly more important than reforming our healthcare system.

Of course. We have the best healthcare system in the world as it is, even if improvements are needed, but on the other side of the debate...what's the argument in favor of murder?

 

[keith99]

Here is a better way to reduce abortions: make it illegal.

Uh, quite the opposite has happened in the past. Making abortions illegal did not reduce abortions. Pretty much the same as prohibition.

 

[Albion]

Uh, quite the opposite has happened in the past. Making abortions illegal did not reduce abortions. Pretty much the same as prohibition.

Maybe we should try that again, now that we have seen how making them legal has caused abortions to skyrocket.

 

[KarlKarlingIII]

Abortion is not child sacrifice.

A whole lot more goes into child sacrifice than what happens during an abortion.

Your words “unwanted pregnancy” say “unwanted child” to me. How can a Christian believe that there are such “unwanted” children - that children should be “unwanted”? A child is a great blessing from God. Abortion is child sacrifice because it it the woman or her lover sacrificing the child so their lifestyle doesn’t have to change. It is rebellion against God and nature.

Gods kingdom extends to all mankind and murder of the unborn is destruction of the pure and innocent. They will be in paradise.

 

[Sparagmos]

Maybe we should try that again, now that we have seen how making them legal has caused abortions to skyrocket.

You’re clearly not keeping up with the stats on this.

 

[Sparagmos]

Such as?

There are no such measures. People should humble themselves before God and accept their fate. Child sacrifice is worship of the devil.

Sex Ed and birth control work!
From the Guttmacher institute study:

•” Abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is highly restricted and where it is broadly legal. The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life, and 34 per 1,000 in countries that allow abortion without restriction as to reason—a difference that is not significant.”

In fact, the countries with lower abortion rates than the U.S. generally have better access to sex education and birth control. You prevent abortion by preventing pregnancy through sex Ed and access to birth control.

 

[Sparagmos]

Of course. We have the best healthcare system in the world as it is, even if improvements are needed, but on the other side of the debate...what's the argument in favor of murder?

What are you using to measure that? What factors prove a good healthcare system?

 

[Sparagmos]

Many of the 'preventatives' also cause abortions, that is why.

If that’s why, then why aren’t pro-lifers in favor of getting condoms in the hands of young people who are having sex? Why no education on how to prevent pregnancy? Not that I think the pill is an abortion....

 

[Isilwen]

Abortion is child sacrifice because it it the woman or her lover sacrificing the child so their lifestyle doesn’t have to change.

Your opinion is noted. Still doesn't mean that it is child sacrifice.

 

[coffee4u]

If that’s why, then why aren’t pro-lifers in favor of getting condoms in the hands of young people who are having sex? Why no education on how to prevent pregnancy? Not that I think the pill is an abortion....

As a Christian, I can't condone pre-marital sex either. Yes I know it happens and yes I know it won't stop but I can't in good faith go and hand out condoms to teenagers. I do think they should be available cheaply and I do think teenagers need to know how pregnancy happens.

Hormone based birth control works in a few ways. It prevents ovulation, thickens the mucus lining so as to prevent fertilization, and thins the lining of the uterus, which may prevent implantation if fertilization does occur. A fertilized ovum means life has begun.
Apart from that, all hormone-based contraception comes with a variety of health risks that people like to overlook. The estimated failure rate is has high as 5% to as low as being under 1%.

 

[carp614]

Unwatch....

You are all totally off topic. Have fun with your abortion debate...