The Word and the Scripture

[Daniel C]

Hi there,

One of our members said the following.

"God works through his word. Hearing comes by believing and believing the word of God. Jesus is the word and the ''word'' is now scripture."

Now this claim that Jesus is no longer the Word poses problems for me.

The theory is that since the scripture is written, Jesus is silent, as His voice is replaced by the scriptures. That means that believers who have the Holy Spirit inside must expect Him now to be silent. Anyone claiming to experience guidance from God is deceived as we now have the bible that has replaced God's voice.

While I hold the bible to be our God given authority on matters of faith and life, we can't understand it unless the Spirit of God speaks. Further no where do I read that the Voice of the Holy Spirit which the Apostles heard, is now silent. I will go as far as to say that those who hold this position and making an Idol out of scripture.

I hold the position that He wants us to enjoy a conversational relationship with Him through prayer as we walk with Him in 'the way' and that this leads to a beautiful life of faith as we hear and obey Him in the detail of life.

Your comments greatly appreciated.

Yeah that was me.

It wasn't so much a claim,just me throwing random scripture together to emphasis a point how I believe the written word of God is paramount above spiritually experiences, Church tradition and church authority etc.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Daniel I apologise if I have misused your quote. It has however triggered a very important discussion that needs to be had. I would appreciate any input you might like to make.

 

[Dave L]

Hi there,

One of our members said the following.

"God works through his word. Hearing comes by believing and believing the word of God. Jesus is the word and the ''word'' is now scripture."

Now this claim that Jesus is no longer the Word poses problems for me.

The theory is that since the scripture is written, Jesus is silent, as His voice is replaced by the scriptures. That means that believers who have the Holy Spirit inside must expect Him now to be silent. Anyone claiming to experience guidance from God is deceived as we now have the bible that has replaced God's voice.

While I hold the bible to be our God given authority on matters of faith and life, we can't understand it unless the Spirit of God speaks. Further no where do I read that the Voice of the Holy Spirit which the Apostles heard, is now silent. I will go as far as to say that those who hold this position and making an Idol out of scripture.

I hold the position that He wants us to enjoy a conversational relationship with Him through prayer as we walk with Him in 'the way' and that this leads to a beautiful life of faith as we hear and obey Him in the detail of life.

Your comments greatly appreciated.

If scripture thoroughly furnishes us, how can you trust anyone hearing voices in their head thinking it is God?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

 

[Carl Emerson]

If scripture thoroughly furnishes us, how can you trust anyone hearing voices in their head thinking it is God?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

Since when did God cease to speak to the believer?

 

[Dave L]

Since when did God cease to speak to the believer?

He speaks through his word only if "thoroughly furnishes" means anything.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If scripture thoroughly furnishes us, how can you trust anyone hearing voices in their head thinking it is God?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

This passage speaks of the importance of the inspired scriptures preparing one's self for Ministry. It is not a statement conveying that the Holy Spirit no longer speaks to believers personally via the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If scripture thoroughly furnishes us, how can you trust anyone hearing voices in their head thinking it is God?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

The ability to discern when the Holy Spirit is speaking to us (or within us) and when He is not, comes through maturity and experience in both prayer and knowledge of the Scriptures.

I think that good decisions are made when there is the combination of maturity, experience, prayerfulness, knowledge of the Scriptures, and plain common sense, using the brain that God gave us.

Those who purport to hear a "voice" telling them that a certain young woman has to be their wife, or that a particular business has to have the contract for the church roof, or that one should seek fame and prosperity, are just using God to promote their fleshly and selfish desires.

I can pray concerning a young woman whom I fancy, and then go through the normal process of dating and wooing her, and if she feels the same about me, things can have a positive outcome and we both may know that God has led us together.

I can also pray about a particular business that might be the best for doing the church roof, and as an elder of the church I can put the issue on the agenda at the next elder's board meeting, discuss the possibility and come to consensus that this business is the most appropriate and cost effective one to do the job.

As part of our relocation to another city, we are in the process of selling our home. We had to choose realtor to handle the sale. We first consulted one whom we know personally to do an appraisal, and he seemed okay, but I kept on having a desire to consult with another realtor whom I knew who I know as an honest and professional person although not one in our area. So I spoke with her, and she gave me advice which was pretty good and referred me to another agent from her firm, in our area. I found out that she and the other agent are the top selling agents in the particular real estate firm. So we engaged the agent she recommended. The agent is being very thorough, professional, hard working, and very supportive of us to get us the best price she can for our home. Only today, I found out that she is a member of a Pentecostal church in our suburb, and a mature, committed Christian! I never knew that until today, so, I am persuaded that God has provided the best agent to sell our home, and it just strengthened my trust in Him that He is involved in what we are planning to do. The only "voice" in my mind that I perceived was, "Have a talk to Wendy before you make any decision about an agent". It wasn't so much of a telepathic voice, but a sort of impression that it would be a good thing to do.

So, it is not a matter of blindly following some telepathic voice, but using wise judgment, tempered by prayer and knowledge of Scripture, and just plain common sense!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oscarr

I have already covered the issue of deception through 'telepathic voices' that is not the subject of the discussion. There will always be 'flakes'

I wouldn't be so quick to ridicule the matter of God telling a person who they should marry. This legitimately happens more often than you might think. 35 years ago a certain young woman was deeply shaken by a Word from Him to marry me as we hardly knew one another. This was tested by the 'spiritual oversight' and has proved to be totally genuine. We were married by one of the most solid saints in the country.

Your first two paragraphs I completely agree with.

We have to be careful no to throw the baby out with the bath water.

He still speaks to the believer, yes it needs to be tested, yes we need maturity and a good grounding in scripture. Lets not pretend He is silent within and teach others to ignore the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[swordsman1]

Elijah not only heard an audible voice but he also had a voice come TO HIM (one that he understood but didn't hear audibly).

The second voice that Elijah heard was also a real voice, not a thought, because it quotes the exact words that were spoken.

Also the word "came" is not in the original Hebrew, which is why it is italicized in translations which highlight words that have been added by the translator. However what is in the original Hebrew is the word "said". So a literal translation would be "a voice to him said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

John 10:4,5,27 YLT And when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on & the sheep follow him, BECAUSE they have known his voice. And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers.' According as I said to you: My sheep my voice do 'hear' & I know them & they follow Me...(G193: 'akouousin', comprehend by hearing & listening to)

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are NOT of this fold. I must bring them in as well & THEY WILL LISTEN TO MY VOICE. Then there will be one flock & one shepherd.

The verses where Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice " is not proof that Jesus speaks to believers via thoughts. We all agree the "voice" is not a literal audible voice, but a metaphorical "voice". But nowhere in scripture is God's metaphorical voice ever referred to as thoughts or feelings. God metaphorical "voice" however is frequently used to describe God speaking through scripture:

Psalm 103:20 "Mighty in strength, who perform His word, obeying the voice of His word!"

Judges 2:20 "So the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to my voice"

2 Kings 18:12 "because they did not obey the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed His covenant, even all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded;

Psalm 106:24-25 "They did not believe in His word, but grumbled in their tents; they did not listen to the voice of the Lord."

Jer 9:13 "The Lord said, “Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice nor walked according to it".

Deut 13:18 "if you will listen to the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all His commandments"

Deut 15:5 "if only you listen obediently to the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all this commandment"

Deut 26:14 "I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God; I have done according to all that You have commanded me."

Ex 19:5 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant"

Ex 23:21 "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. " (this is Moses speaking)

Dan 9:10 "nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets."

Daniel 9:11 "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice;"
1 Sam 12:14 "If you will fear the Lord and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the Lord"

1 Sam 12:14 "If you will not listen to the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the command of the Lord,"

Jer 11:3-4 "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, “Cursed is the man who does not heed the words of this covenant which I commanded your forefathers ..., saying, ‘Listen to My voice, and do according to all which I command you; so you shall be My people"

Jer 26:12-13 "The Lord sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God".

Jer 40:2-3 "The Lord your God promised this calamity against this place; and the Lord has brought it on and done just as He promised. Because you people sinned against the Lord and did not listen to His voice, therefore this thing has happened to you".

Psalm 81:11 “But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me.​

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit & to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...
(how did James know this?)

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things AND so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
(how did all the apostles know this?)

It doesn't say. So we cannot make the presumption it was through an inner thought or feeling. Seeing as they were apostles a more likely explanation is that God spoke to them directly (Acts 22:14, Acts 9:4, Acts 10:13, Acts 13:2, Acts 18:9, Acts 22:18,21, Acts 23:11, etc). We, however, are not apostles.

Romans 8:5,9,14,16 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their MINDS on the things of the Spirit. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

It says the people set their minds, not the Holy Spirit set their minds.

For all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

It is another misconception that being "led by the Spirit" means He leads by beaming extra biblical revelations into our heads. If you look at the context of that verse you can see that it is spoken in regard to the Spirit helping us to put to death the deeds of the flesh - not giving extra biblical communication.

Romans 8:12-14 "So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."​

The Spirit HIMSELF TESTIFIES WITH OUR SPIRIT that we are God’s children.

Notice it says the Spirit testifies "WITH our spirit", not "in our spirit". There are 2 witnesses that testify that we are children of God - our spirit and the Holy Spirit. (adoption proceedings required multiple witnesses to be "legal"). It is nothing to do with internal revelations.

Acts 13:2-4 While they were worshiping the Lord & fasting, the Holy Spirit SAID, “Set apart FOR ME, Barnabas & Saul, for the work to which I HAVE CALLED THEM.” So after THEY had fasted & prayed, they laid their hands on them & sent them off. Then Barnabas & Saul, SENT FORTH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, went down to Seleucia & sailed from there to Cyprus.

How did this whole group hear what the Holy Spirit SAID to them all? How did Barnabas & Saul KNOW they were sent out by the Holy Spirit, except they heard directly from Him.

Acts 10:19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Holy Spirit SAID TO HIM, "Three men are here looking for you. Get up! Go downstairs & accompany them WITHOUT hesitation, BECAUSE I HAVE SENT THEM.”
(How did these men know they were sent by the Holy Spirit & how did Peter know they were sent also?)

Acts 11:12 Then THE SPIRIT TOLD ME TO GO WITH THEM, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house.

Acts 8:29-31 The Spirit SAID TO PHILIP, “Go over to that chariot & stay by it.” So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?”

None of these examples are of thoughts popping into their heads. It quotes the exact words the Spirit said. The Holy Spirit literally spoke to them. Or else Luke was lying.

Acts 8:39,40 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CARRIED PHILIP AWAY & the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip APPEARED at Azotus & traveled through that region, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
(How did that happen?)

I don't know, but this verse has nothing to do with God speaking to believers.

I Tim 4:1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.

It says "the Holy Spirit tells us" so he is almost certainly referring to a prophecy of scripture, not a personal revelation. Perhaps it was Acts 20:29 or one of Jesus's prophecies about false teachers.

Acts 20:23 I only know that in town after town the Holy Spirit WARNS ME that chains & afflictions await me.

Acts 21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own feet & hands & said, "THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS: 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt & hand him over to the Gentiles.'"

I Cor 2:9,10 Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” For God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

Eph 3:5 ...Which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles & prophets.

More examples of the Holy Spirit speaking real words directly to apostles and prophets. Acts 21:11 even quotes the exact words the Spirit said.

Romans 8:26,27 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans TOO DEEP FOR WORDS. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit INTERCEDES for the saints according to the will of God.

This is about the Spirit speaking to God on our behalf, not about the Spirit speaking to believers.

He simply said, "Go up the hill by the pond."

the Spirit said, "Wait five minutes."

the Spirit woke me up out of a dead sleep & said simply, "Pray for your parents."

Did you hear an audible voice saying those words, or were they thoughts that popped into your head which you are verbalizing into "God said...."

In various parts of the world, they don't have ready access to the Scriptures, led alone even one Bible or their Bibles are confiscated. So how does God communicate with His people?

What country has confiscated all bibles from Christians in their land? Any place where there are churches (free or underground) God will provide a bible.

Brother Andrew of 'Open Doors' ministry shares a story of needing to contact a Christian in a large 'state' church in the USSR.

Neither had ever seen each other, yet this Russian walked up to him & said you must be brother Andrew. He wanted to know how he knew him in this large crowd. This Russian brother told him that God gave him a dream & pictured Andrew before him. That is how he knew.

I take unsubstantiated stories and rumours with a huge pinch of salt.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr

I have already covered the issue of deception through 'telepathic voices' that is not the subject of the discussion. There will always be 'flakes'

I wouldn't be so quick to ridicule the matter of God telling a person who they should marry. This legitimately happens more often than you might think. 35 years ago a certain young woman was deeply shaken by a Word from Him to marry me as we hardly knew one another. This was tested by the 'spiritual oversight' and has proved to be totally genuine. We were married by one of the most solid saints in the country.

Your first two paragraphs I completely agree with.

We have to be careful no to throw the baby out with the bath water.

He still speaks to the believer, yes it needs to be tested, yes we need maturity and a good grounding in scripture. Lets not pretend He is silent within and teach others to ignore the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Your experience is proof that there are exceptions to the rule. The confirmation for her is that the Holy Spirit spoke to you with words like, "Be not afraid to marry this woman." And your subsequent life afterward proves that God was in it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What country has confiscated all bibles from Christians in their land? Any place where there are churches (free or underground) God will provide a bible.

I have smuggled bibles into China in the 80's twice and they were very sought after. Many folk were unable to get their hands on one.

 

[Blade]

Never heard this before. He is the word made flesh. The word.. everything He speaks is alive..never dies never gets old..not time no space. He is.. I am

 

[Carl Emerson]

Your experience is proof that there are exceptions to the rule. The confirmation for her is that the Holy Spirit spoke to you with words like, "Be not afraid to marry this woman." And your subsequent life afterward proves that God was in it.

Actually it happened pretty fast - engaged in 3 weeks and married in 3 months. It was pretty cerebral as well - I made a list of about 20 things that would make sense if He was choosing me a life partner. I looked at the list and looked at the lady and there was a complete match.
My prayer partner at the time who is now an AOG Pastor had a vision of a sudden change in my life circumstances on the very day she broke the news about her 'word'. A prayer group down South who had been praying for me for 7 years looked at one another and felt there was no need to pray any longer at the time she got the 'word'. Further at the very time she got the 'word' I was on a retreat and 'saw' a dove coming down from the sky in flames - so I knew He was doing something dramatic (but I didn't know what)

Now you might think I am in idiot giving this sort of detail and running the risk of being considered a flake but frankly I don't care, and will continue to testify because there are plenty of folks out there scared to relate this sort of detail because of the naysayers and false accusers.

He is at work among those who truly seek Him and will not remain silent.

 

[Dave L]

The ability to discern when the Holy Spirit is speaking to us (or within us) and when He is not, comes through maturity and experience in both prayer and knowledge of the Scriptures.

I think that good decisions are made when there is the combination of maturity, experience, prayerfulness, knowledge of the Scriptures, and plain common sense, using the brain that God gave us.

Those who purport to hear a "voice" telling them that a certain young woman has to be their wife, or that a particular business has to have the contract for the church roof, or that one should seek fame and prosperity, are just using God to promote their fleshly and selfish desires.

I can pray concerning a young woman whom I fancy, and then go through the normal process of dating and wooing her, and if she feels the same about me, things can have a positive outcome and we both may know that God has led us together.

I can also pray about a particular business that might be the best for doing the church roof, and as an elder of the church I can put the issue on the agenda at the next elder's board meeting, discuss the possibility and come to consensus that this business is the most appropriate and cost effective one to do the job.

As part of our relocation to another city, we are in the process of selling our home. We had to choose realtor to handle the sale. We first consulted one whom we know personally to do an appraisal, and he seemed okay, but I kept on having a desire to consult with another realtor whom I knew who I know as an honest and professional person although not one in our area. So I spoke with her, and she gave me advice which was pretty good and referred me to another agent from her firm, in our area. I found out that she and the other agent are the top selling agents in the particular real estate firm. So we engaged the agent she recommended. The agent is being very thorough, professional, hard working, and very supportive of us to get us the best price she can for our home. Only today, I found out that she is a member of a Pentecostal church in our suburb, and a mature, committed Christian! I never knew that until today, so, I am persuaded that God has provided the best agent to sell our home, and it just strengthened my trust in Him that He is involved in what we are planning to do. The only "voice" in my mind that I perceived was, "Have a talk to Wendy before you make any decision about an agent". It wasn't so much of a telepathic voice, but a sort of impression that it would be a good thing to do.

So, it is not a matter of blindly following some telepathic voice, but using wise judgment, tempered by prayer and knowledge of Scripture, and just plain common sense!

Here's something to consider when seeking extra biblical "revelations".

Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Dave L]

This passage speaks of the importance of the inspired scriptures preparing one's self for Ministry. It is not a statement conveying that the Holy Spirit no longer speaks to believers personally via the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI Why so much mental health trouble with Charismatics. You don't see in mainline Churches?

 

[swordsman1]

I have smuggled bibles into China in the 80's twice and they were very sought after. Many folk were unable to get their hands on one.

As I said - Any place where there are churches (free or underground) God will provide a bible.

 

[swordsman1]

Actually it happened pretty fast - engaged in 3 weeks and married in 3 months. It was pretty cerebral as well - I made a list of about 20 things that would make sense if He was choosing me a life partner. I looked at the list and looked at the lady and there was a complete match.
My prayer partner at the time who is now an AOG Pastor had a vision of a sudden change in my life circumstances on the very day she broke the news about her 'word'. A prayer group down South who had been praying for me for 7 years looked at one another and felt there was no need to pray any longer at the time she got the 'word'. Further at the very time she got the 'word' I was on a retreat and 'saw' a dove coming down from the sky in flames - so I knew He was doing something dramatic (but I didn't know what)

Now you might think I am in idiot giving this sort of detail and running the risk of being considered a flake but frankly I don't care, and will continue to testify because there are plenty of folks out there scared to relate this sort of detail because of the naysayers and false accusers.

He is at work among those who truly seek Him and will not remain silent.

I wonder how many young women have married a man after he told her "God told me you are to be my wife" not because she loved him, but because she did not want to disobey the Lord.

I know of many charismatic churches that have had huge disputes when someone claimed they were given "a word from the Lord" over some practical matter which the others disagreed with. There are even "duelling prophets" claiming to have contradictory prophecies.

Clearly the idea of God giving instructions via a person's thoughts is wide open to abuse, as well as being unbiblical.

 

[xxkingskidlmxx]

I wonder how many young women have married a man after he told her "God told me you are to be my wife" not because she loved him, but because she did not want to disobey the Lord.

I know of many charismatic churches that have had huge disputes when someone claimed they were given "a word from the Lord" over some practical matter which the others disagreed with. There are even "duelling prophets" claiming to have contradictory prophecies.

Clearly the idea of God giving instructions via a person's thoughts is wide open to abuse, as well as being unbiblical.

If God didn’t tell her personally and she be willing to accept man's word, not waiting on God’s Word for herself is just foolishness.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I wonder how many young women have married a man after he told her "God told me you are to be my wife" not because she loved him, but because she did not want to disobey the Lord.

I know of many charismatic churches that have had huge disputes when someone claimed they were given "a word from the Lord" over some practical matter which the others disagreed with. There are even "duelling prophets" claiming to have contradictory prophecies.

Clearly the idea of God giving instructions via a person's thoughts is wide open to abuse, as well as being unbiblical.

Being spoken to by the Holy Spirit is not unbiblical.

We were told there would be wheat and tares.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Here's something to consider when seeking extra biblical "revelations".

Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI

Folks dont generally 'seeking of extra-biblical revelations'

I do know that the Holy Spirit within us is not silent if we have an ear to hear. This is biblical.