The Restitution Of All Things

[Lazarus Short]

Really?
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Second Thessalonians 1:8? It's always nice to provide book, chapter, verse AND translation. Here's what I wrote down about it in my ongoing word study on "fire":

Second Thessalonians 1:8-9 gives us this: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...” This must be a reference to the Lake of Fire [that is to say, not Hell], which we have discussed elsewhere. It results in the Second Death, which I suppose could be equated with “everlasting destruction” except that the Greek word is, again, “aionion,” so “temporary” or “age-long” must be considered as well as “for ever” and “everlasting.”

In a wider context, the verses you quoted can be seen in the light of God being a Refiner of men, starting with the lead, tin, brass and iron...and ending with silver and gold. The evidence is scattered throughout the Bible. I'm up to sixteen pages of such gathered evidence, so far.

 

[renniks]

The evidence is scattered throughout the Bible. I'

Because you have to pick and choose what verses you like and make them fit together, while re interpreting it's clear teachings...

 

[Lazarus Short]

Because you have to pick and choose what verses you like and make them fit together, while re interpreting it's clear teachings...

Rather than deal forthrightly with what I say, you bring up a red herring like that? Further, advocates of Hell do exactly what you accuse me of. You know, God could have laid it all out for us in not-so-many pages, but He did not. Why? So that, to get at the truth, we would need to consult His Word over and over, connecting the dots and putting it all together. Can you dig it?

But to answer your criticism, I dealt in my word study with every, EVERY instance of "fire" that I found in the Bible, excepting those that obviously related to fire in the natural world. Yes, I picked and chose, but I did it in a disciplined manner, and I am not done yet. I still have related words to check out, but so far, its teachings seem very clear, even if they are not the usual message. As I often say, God's Message is an ocean, but the best of us have merely dabbled our toes in it...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But to answer your criticism, I dealt in my word study with every, EVERY instance of "fire" that I found in the Bible,

Can you share your fire study with us fellow 'cherry pickers' when it's cooked, bro?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Because you have to pick and choose what verses you like and make them fit together, while re interpreting it's clear teachings...

There's no doctrine more ad hoc, ex post and cobbled together than eternal damnation. To do so, one must resort to:

• cherry-picking - highly selective and de-contextualising approach needed with only around 10 isolated verses in the NT that may be pressed into service.
• mistranslation and conflation - eg Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, the pit, the lake of fire, tartaroo...so hell's a shell game? Also aion, kolasin, pur etc.
• eisegesis on dubious assumptions eg Gehenna burning garbage dump, the historical phantasmagoria, the legendary horrors of hell.
• legalism and literalism - it's the old auto da fe sentence, the fire is natural, the judgement is passed by God as angry magistrate, the sentence is endless torture. It's a common category error! And remember, nothing unclean (koinos) gets into heaven (Rev 21:28)

Thanks for your contributions to date towards developing a rudimentary rubric of a taxonomy of error in this area. Keep em coming my friend.

And here's what Strong's has to say about FIRE, to keep you from going off the boil:
Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire

 

[Lazarus Short]

Can you share your fire study with us fellow 'cherry pickers' when it's cooked, bro?

I plan to, and it should shake things up nicely...

 

[Lazarus Short]

There's no doctrine more ad hoc, ex post and cobbled together than eternal damnation. To do so, one must resort to:

• cherry-picking - highly selective and de-contextualising approach needed with only around 10 isolated verses in the NT that may be pressed into service.
• mistranslation and conflation - eg Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, the pit, the lake of fire, tartaroo...so hell's a shell game? Also aion, kolasin, pur etc.
• eisegesis on dubious assumptions eg Gehenna burning garbage dump, the historical phantasmagoria, the legendary horrors of hell.
• legalism and literalism - it's the old auto da fe sentence, the fire is natural, the judgement is passed by God as angry magistrate, the sentence is endless torture. It's a common category error! And remember, nothing unclean (koinos) gets into heaven (Rev 21:28)

Thanks for your contributions to date towards developing a rudimentary rubric of a taxonomy of error in this area. Keep em coming my friend.

And here's what Strong's has to say about FIRE, to keep you from going off the boil:
Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire

Don't leave out dependence on FICTION: Dante, Milton, Mary K Baxter, and endless pop-culture references.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Don't leave out dependence on FICTION: Dante, Milton, Mary K Baxter, and endless pop-culture references.

Yep, I'd put them in the 'dubious eisegesis' category for now.

Did you know the lowest part of hell for Dante is made of ice? The medieval view I believe, because Aristotelian science posits fire as the heavenly element (lighter than air, flames head towards their heavenly home). God is heat and light. His absence is darkness and cold.

So eschatology now is even darker than in the dark ages!

 

[renniks]

Rather than deal forthrightly with what I say, you bring up a red herring like that? Further, advocates of Hell do exactly what you accuse me of. You know, God could have laid it all out for us in not-so-many pages, but He did not. Why? So that, to get at the truth, we would need to consult His Word over and over, connecting the dots and putting it all together. Can you dig it?

But to answer your criticism, I dealt in my word study with every, EVERY instance of "fire" that I found in the Bible, excepting those that obviously related to fire in the natural world. Yes, I picked and chose, but I did it in a disciplined manner, and I am not done yet. I still have related words to check out, but so far, its teachings seem very clear, even if they are not the usual message. As I often say, God's Message is an ocean, but the best of us have merely dabbled our toes in it...

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

All will bow, but you all keep pulling out these kinds of statements and insisting means all will be saved. But, that's not what is stated. All mankind will bow, but here it appears that happens only after God has already put the unrighteous in a place of eternal punishment.
When I read the Bible as written, with no presuppositions, there is no way to come to the conclusion that all are somehow saved in the end. Like all false teachings, it has to be forced into the text, by selectively re interpreting the plain teachings of the Holy Bible.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

All will bow, but you all keep pulling out these kinds of statements and insisting means all will be saved. But, that's not what is stated. All mankind will bow, but here it appears that happens only after God has already put the unrighteous in a place of eternal punishment.
When I read the Bible as written, with no presuppositions, there is no way to come to the conclusion that all are somehow saved in the end. Like all false teachings, it has to be forced into the text, by selectively re interpreting the plain teachings of the Holy Bible.

It's a troublesome passage, just look at it - all mankind comes and bows, yet the rebels' bodies are on display. I don't get that, unless the rebels have been converted, saved and given new, glorified bodies. Then it would make sense that their old, carnal bodies would be a sort of nasty memorial.

In the end, your doctrines will depend on what version you use, and you have not yet stated which one you use. I use the Young's Literal, the Ferrar Fenton and a new version simply called "The Scriptures." All are hell-free. From my end of the translation spectrum, it is very clear that your statement,

"Like all false teachings, it has to be forced into the text, by selectively re interpreting the plain teachings of the Holy Bible."

applies to the KJV, the version most quoted by Hell-advocates. I have seen in it, bias, substitution of more emotionally-loaded words and the insertion of a word (Hel/Hell) which was foreign to all the languages from which the Bible was translated. Did God not tell us not to add or to take away from His Words? Yet we see the Germanic "Hel" and "Hell" in the text, and they have almost nothing to do with "sheol," "hades," "gehenna" and "tartarus."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

All will bow, but you all keep pulling out these kinds of statements and insisting means all will be saved. But, that's not what is stated. All mankind will bow, but here it appears that happens only after God has already put the unrighteous in a place of eternal punishment.
When I read the Bible as written, with no presuppositions, there is no way to come to the conclusion that all are somehow saved in the end. Like all false teachings, it has to be forced into the text, by selectively re interpreting the plain teachings of the Holy Bible.

They emerge from the fire transformed and look back at the corpses of their old selves. The worms are feeding on their corpses, because God makes even dead flesh sustain life.

Isaiah 65:24 is not reflected in Revelation 21 or 22. Instead we find 'there will be no more curse' (Rev 22:3) and other life-affirming declarations, with allusions to Ez 47:1-10 and these last chapters of Isaiah. Indeed, the commentary on 65:24 tells us that it was the synagogue practice to repeat the penultimate verse after the final verse, to restore hope.

The world will be renewed by God's salvation. Don't insist on death, torture and mayhem as the correct way to read these scriptures. That's averse to God's character of spirit, life, light and love. It's also very bad news.

 

[FineLinen]

They emerge from the fire transformed and look back at the corpses of their old selves. The worms are feeding on their corpses, because God makes even dead flesh sustain life.

Isaiah 65:24 is not reflected in Revelation 21 or 22. Instead we find 'there will be no more curse' (Rev 22:3) and other life-affirming declarations, with allusions to Ez 47:1-10 and these last chapters of Isaiah. Indeed, the commentary on 65:24 tells us that it was the synagogue practice to repeat the penultimate verse after the final verse, to restore hope.

The world will be renewed by God's salvation. Don't insist on death, torture and mayhem as the correct way to read these scriptures. That's averse to God's character of spirit, life, light and love. It's also very bad news.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Your collection of occasional gifs is quite impressive in itself F.L.

 

[FineLinen]

They emerge from the fire transformed and look back at the corpses of their old selves. The worms are feeding on their corpses, because God makes even dead flesh sustain life.

Isaiah 65:24 is not reflected in Revelation 21 or 22. Instead we find 'there will be no more curse' (Rev 22:3) and other life-affirming declarations, with allusions to Ez 47:1-10 and these last chapters of Isaiah. Indeed, the commentary on 65:24 tells us that it was the synagogue practice to repeat the penultimate verse after the final verse, to restore hope.

The world will be renewed by God's salvation. Don't insist on death, torture and mayhem as the correct way to read these scriptures. That's averse to God's character of spirit, life, light and love. It's also very bad news.

Dear brother from down under: The mighty hope our Father places within us burns like a fire in our bones. At every corner we find broken lives crying out for hope. Most know it not, but every broken life is heading for a brand new Day of unprecedented proportions, every last one!

There most assuredly is the aspect of "especially" in the sense of being special in Father’s great plan of reconciliation. He is the Saviour in a unique sense of those who trust in Him, or who believe in this present earthly dimension. Being elected in Him is not by default, but encompasses the aspect of being chosen in Him far beyond our choices of yea or nay, and completely in His design from before the foundation of the world.

I behold many dwelling places in Father’s House, all unique habitations, and all fitting together in His tapestry. The process involves the operation of His might as He brings each of us to His desired purpose and our place as children of God, sons of God (like their Elder Brother) the Archegos & Prodromos, and for some the unique group of sons following the Lamb in the withersoever.

We were in God's Heart before we received Him into ours.

 

[renniks]

They emerge from the fire transformed and look back at the corpses of their old selves.

Rotflol. That's some creative twisting. Chubby Checker would be proud.
"It may be made a question, perhaps, to what period this refers. The Saviour Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, applied the language to the future punishment of the wicked, and no one, I think, can doubt that in Isaiah it includes that consummation of worldly affairs. The radical and essential idea in the prophet is, as it seems to me, that such would be the entire overthrow and punishment of the enemies of God; so condign their punishment; so deep their sufferings; so loathsome and hateful would they be when visited with the divine vengeance for their sins, that they would be an object of loathing and abhorrence. They would be swept off as unworthy to live with God, and they would be consigned to punishment - loathsome like that of ever gnawing worms on the carcasses of the slain, and interminable and dreadful like everconsuming and extinguishable fires."

 

[FineLinen]

Rotflol. That's some creative twisting. Chubby Checker would be proud.
"It may be made a question, perhaps, to what period this refers. The Saviour Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, applied the language to the future punishment of the wicked, and no one, I think, can doubt that in Isaiah it includes that consummation of worldly affairs. The radical and essential idea in the prophet is, as it seems to me, that such would be the entire overthrow and punishment of the enemies of God; so condign their punishment; so deep their sufferings; so loathsome and hateful would they be when visited with the divine vengeance for their sins, that they would be an object of loathing and abhorrence. They would be swept off as unworthy to live with God, and they would be consigned to punishment - loathsome like that of ever gnawing worms on the carcasses of the slain, and interminable and dreadful like everconsuming and extinguishable fires."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Rotflol. That's some creative twisting. Chubby Checker would be proud.
"It may be made a question, perhaps, to what period this refers. The Saviour Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, applied the language to the future punishment of the wicked, and no one, I think, can doubt that in Isaiah it includes that consummation of worldly affairs. The radical and essential idea in the prophet is, as it seems to me, that such would be the entire overthrow and punishment of the enemies of God; so condign their punishment; so deep their sufferings; so loathsome and hateful would they be when visited with the divine vengeance for their sins, that they would be an object of loathing and abhorrence. They would be swept off as unworthy to live with God, and they would be consigned to punishment - loathsome like that of ever gnawing worms on the carcasses of the slain, and interminable and dreadful like everconsuming and extinguishable fires."

Who are you quoting? I have asked you before to cite sources.

 

[renniks]

Who are you quoting? I have asked you before to cite sources.

This was Barnes commentary.

 

[renniks]

That's exactly how I feel after reading any one of fine lies scripture twisters posts!

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's exactly how I feel after reading any one of fine lies scripture twisters posts!

In time, the Real Twister will be exposed. Damnationists say, "We're right! You're wrong!" Annihilationists say it. Universalists say it too. Who is right? We play proof text ping-pong and nothing gets resolved. We tell each other, "The Word of God says such-and-such." However, one is using a KJV which mentions Hell, while another uses the YLT, which does not.

Folks, this will not be settled until we examine our Bibles verse by verse, consulting the center-column references, concordances, commentaries and dictionaries, both Biblical and secular. Most important, you MUST find a Bible which is accurate, one whose translation is not tainted by theology. Get back to FIRST principles: translate first, and only then the theology. Is that reasonable?