The Restitution Of All Things

[Shrewd Manager]

Where did Christ go and what was the outcome?

The water keeps cascading down:

Who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy (Ps:103:4)

 

[Lazarus Short]

Hi there Steve: The damnationists have actually taken the koine for judgement and transformed it into damnation, those wascally wabbits.

Damnable, Damnation, And Damned - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

The creation has been "made subject to futility, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who made it so."

Why?

The WHOLE of created life shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption..

Yes, the KJV in particular has a definite bias toward upping the emotional ante in its word choices. This morning, in my ongoing word study on "fire," I came across Jude 7. This is what I wrote:

Jude , verse 7. mentions Sodom and Gomorrha, “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” The center-column reference offers us “punishment” rather than “vengeance,” and the Greek interlinear gives us “[the] penalty” - this is toned way down from “vengeance,” and I have seen this bias toward upping the emotional ante many times in the KJV. After all, a penalty/punishment meshes better with other Scriptures, such as the one in which God promises to restore the fortunes of those very peoples – see Ezekiel 16:53. That verse and eternal vengence can not both be true, and Ezekiel is true. As for “eternal fire,” the fire is obvious, but the “eternal” part is as ever, our familiar “aioniou,” which is “aionion” used as an adjective.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, the KJV in particular has a definite bias toward upping the emotional ante in its word choices. This morning, in my ongoing word study on "fire," I came across Jude 7. This is what I wrote:

Jude , verse 7. mentions Sodom and Gomorrha, “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” The center-column reference offers us “punishment” rather than “vengeance,” and the Greek interlinear gives us “[the] penalty” - this is toned way down from “vengeance,” and I have seen this bias toward upping the emotional ante many times in the KJV. After all, a penalty/punishment meshes better with other Scriptures, such as the one in which God promises to restore the fortunes of those very peoples – see Ezekiel 16:53. That verse and eternal vengence can not both be true, and Ezekiel is true. As for “eternal fire,” the fire is obvious, but the “eternal” part is as ever, our familiar “aioniou,” which is “aionion” used as an adjective.

The KJV is maybe the 'damnation translation', it's a literary masterpiece but overly paganised - charged up with visceral carnalised language, and upping the emotional ante as you say.

That said, it is ancient Hebrew rhetorical idiom (especially in the prophets) to employ violent hyperbolic retributive language for restorative objectives.

After the tumult, a still small voice...

 

[renniks]

Seek the Lord while he may be found.
Today is the day of salvation.
Remember your creator in the days of your youth.
None of these make a lick of sense if we have forever to repent.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Seek the Lord while he may be found.
Today is the day of salvation.
Remember your creator in the days of your youth.
None of these make a lick of sense if we have forever to repent.

But we don't have forever - we have only until God turns us around, finishes refining us, and in general, exercises His Sovereign Will in our lives. In my own life, He announced Himself when I was about 26 or 27, and I had a major season of repenting at about age 41. Hardly forever.

I would preface your three statements like so:

[It would be better if you'd] seek the Lord while He may be found.

[It would be better if] today is the day of salvation.

[It would be better if you'd] remember your Creator in the days of your youth.

It's all in His timing, not ours, and it won't take forever.

 

[renniks]

But we don't have forever - we have only until God turns us around, finishes refining us, and in general, exercises His Sovereign Will in our lives. In my own life, He announced Himself when I was about 26 or 27, and I had a major season of repenting at about age 41. Hardly forever.

I would preface your three statements like so:

[It would be better if you'd] seek the Lord while He may be found.

[It would be better if] today is the day of salvation.

[It would be better if you'd] remember your Creator in the days of your youth.

It's all in His timing, not ours, and it won't take forever.

That is some serious warping of scripture...

 

[Lazarus Short]

That is some serious warping of scripture...

How so?

 

[FineLinen]

Seek the Lord while he may be found.
Today is the day of salvation.
Remember your creator in the days of your youth.
None of these make a lick of sense if we have forever to repent.

Ren: This will evidently come as a terrible shock to your idea of repenting, but repentance does not come in your timing it comes in HIS!

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

I the Lord will put My Spirit in you & cause you to walk in My statutes & to carefully observe My ordinances.

 

[renniks]

Ren: This will evidently come as a terrible shock to your idea of repenting, but repentance does not come in your timing it comes in HIS!

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

I the Lord will put My Spirit in you & cause you to walk in My statutes & to carefully observe My ordinances.

Context, bubba. This is God promising to Israel if they would once again have opportunities to repent...It's not saying that every Jew will repent. Because of their wickedness he did not have to give them this chance. As Paul says in Romans they did not fall beyond saving. When you come across like a calvinist I have to wonder, what is the point of the incarnation anyway, if everyone is eventually and irresistibly caused to repent?

 

[renniks]

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[FineLinen]

Context, bubba. This is God promising to Israel if they would once again have opportunities to repent...It's not saying that every Jew will repent. Because of their wickedness he did not have to give them this chance. As Paul says in Romans they did not fall beyond saving. When you come across like a calvinist I have to wonder, what is the point of the incarnation anyway, if everyone is eventually and irresistibly caused to repent?

Ren: Our Father is NOT running a gigantic Heavenly game of chance! His Plan is based entirely on Himself and His power to accomplish it. No opportunities, no chance!

I repeat: repentance does not come in your timing it comes in HIS!

The purpose He has cherished IN Himself

 

[renniks]

Ren: Our Father is NOT running a gigantic Heavenly game of chance! His Plan is based entirely on Himself and His power to accomplish it. No opportunities, no chance!

I repeat: repentance does not come in your timing it comes in HIS!

The purpose He has cherished IN Himself

Well then let's stop this evangelism nonsense then. No use wasting time trying to get people to convert when they have forever to do so anyway.

 

[FineLinen]

"Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable; He did not come to improve the improvable; He did not come to reform the reformable. None of those things works." -Robert Farrar Capon-

 

[FineLinen]

The Restitution Of All Things

https://www.kingdomandglory.com/art/art51.pdf

Reconciliation means "to make friendly again or win over to a friendly attitude; to bring two parties into harmony or peace with each other." By definition, reconciliation means that a peace deal has been struck on the part of all that were once at odds or at war with each other. However, reconciliation requires a process by which all parties come to terms of peace, and generally, this process must start with one of the parties making the first move. In other words, one party must be willing to raise the white flag of peace in order for the other party to respond, whether favorably or unfavorably. Obviously, if one rejects the deal and keeps shooting, so to speak, there is no peace. However, this peace deal does not start with reconciliation per se, but with a less known word that is seldom heard in modern-day conversation. The first step of reconciliation is called conciliation, which is exactly what Paul explains in relation to God, the world, and His ambassadors.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well then let's stop this evangelism nonsense then. No use wasting time trying to get people to convert when they have forever to do so anyway.

It's the good news Renniks. No need to browbeat people into submission. I tell them about the perfect friendship of Christ and steadfast love of God. These are things that save, that go to the heart. Not some forced and empty confession in order to buy divine indulgence.

 

[renniks]

It's the good news Renniks. No need to browbeat people into submission. I tell them about the perfect friendship of Christ and steadfast love of God. These are things that save, that go to the heart. Not some forced and empty confession in order to buy divine indulgence.

Nothing forced and empty about understanding the gospel and responding to it. Without knowing that we are sinful and corrupt and in need of a savior, what you get are false converts that just want God to make life easier for them. You can't understand God's love without first understanding your brokenness.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nothing forced and empty about understanding the gospel and responding to it. Without knowing that we are sinful and corrupt and in need of a savior, what you get are false converts that just want God to make life easier for them. You can't understand God's love without first understanding your brokenness.

Agreed, but the threat of eternal damnation on the other hand only produces rejection of a sinful and corrupt deity. It's the conditional 'buy our fire insurance or burn in hell' version that unbelievers rightly reject. Cause it's patently false and wrong on so many levels.

I've a good mind to run a test case on general equitable principles. You couldn't get away with running a business and marketing product in that manner.

 

[renniks]

It's the conditional 'buy our fire insurance or burn in hell' version that unbelievers rightly reject.

If we don't understand that we deserve hell, we don't really understand our need of salvation.

 

[Lazarus Short]

If we don't understand that we deserve hell, we don't really understand our need of salvation.

Why do our Bibles tell us the wages of sin are death? I have yet to read in my Bible that the wages are Hell.

 

[renniks]

Why do our Bibles tell us the wages of sin are death? I have yet to read in my Bible that the wages are Hell.

Really?
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;