THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

[jgr]

Awaiting an answer as to why the sources you cited are not given credit for making the doctrines of Preterism the prevailing view in the Church for several centuries instead of Origen and Augustine who lived during the third and fourth centuries.

My request preceded yours.

Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

Awaiting.

 

[Contenders Edge]

My request preceded yours.

Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

Awaiting.

That is if you really have an answer.

 

[jgr]

That is if you really have an answer.

You first.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

"Replacement theology" or "supersessionism" is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
======================================
If you post, please vote in the poll [thanks to those who have voted]
I can also add more options...........

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?

1. 
   Yes
   4 vote(s)
   66.7%
2. No
   1 vote(s)
   16.7%
3. I don't know what REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY is
   1 vote(s)
   16.7%
4. I don't know what SUPERSESSIONISM IS
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5. Does it matter?
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6. Other
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[BABerean2]

which includes permanent land restoration,

The permanent land promise is found below, written in God's Word.
You have to ignore it to make your doctrine work.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, after this earth is "burned up", and "dissolved".
I am looking for the same thing.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

You first.

Perhaps you don't really don't know the answer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Continuing...........
I. Justin Martyr taught "Replacement theology":

1. Summary of the Replacement theology of Justin Martyr:
a. "Christians are the True Israel" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)

b. "As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, (like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David,) are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)

c. "Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race. (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)

d. "As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)

e. "For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.' ... But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter XXVIII, 130 AD)

2. Chapter CXXIII.—Ridiculous Interpretations of the Jews. Christians are the True Israel.

a. "As, therefore, all these latter prophecies refer to Christ and the nations, you should believe that the former refer to Him and them in like manner. For the proselytes have no need of a covenant, if, since there is one and the same law imposed on all that are circumcised, the Scripture speaks about them thus: 'And the stranger shall also be joined with them, and shall be joined to the house of Jacob; ' and because the proselyte, who is circumcised that he may have access to the people, becomes like one of themselves,477 while we who have been deemed worthy to be called a people are yet Gentiles, because we have not been circumcised. Besides, it is ridiculous for you to imagine that the eyes of the proselytes are to be opened while your own are not, and that you be understood as blind and deaf while they are enlightened. And it will be still more ridiculous for you, if you say that the law has been given to the nations, but you have not known it. For you would have stood in awe of God's wrath, and would not have been lawless, wandering sons; being much afraid of hearing God always say, 'Children in whom is no faith. And who are blind, but my servants? and deaf, but they that rule over them? And the servants of God have been made blind. You see often, but have not observed; your ears have been opened, and you have not heard.' Is God's commendation of you honourable? and is God's testimony seemly for His servants? You are not ashamed though you often hear these words. You do not tremble at God's threats, for you are a people foolish and hard-hearted. 'Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove this people, 'saith the Lord; 'and I will remove them, and destroy the wisdom of the wise, and hide the understanding of the prudent.' Deservedly too: for you are neither wise nor prudent, but crafty and unscrupulous; wise only to do evil, but utterly incompetent to know the hidden counsel of God, or the faithful covenant of the Lord, or to find out the everlasting paths. 'Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts.'

3. Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

a. "And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King, ' will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King? For you are aware that Jacob the son of Isaac was never a king. And therefore Scripture again, explaining to us, says what king is meant by Jacob and Israel: 'Jacob is my Servant, I will uphold Him; and Israel is mine Elect, my soul shall receive Him. I have given Him my Spirit; and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, and His voice shall not be heard without. The bruised reed He shall not break, and the smoking flax He shall not quench, until He shall bring forth judgment to victory. He shall shine, and shall not be broken, until He set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.' Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race.

4. Chapter CXL.—In Christ All are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They are Sons of Abraham.

a. "Hence also Jacob, as I remarked before, being himself a type of Christ, had married the two handmaids of his two free wives, and of them begat sons, for the purpose of indicating beforehand that Christ would receive even all those who amongst Japheth's race are descendants of Canaan, equally with the free, and would have the children fellow-heirs. And we are such; but you cannot comprehend this, because you cannot drink of the living fountain of God, but of broken cisterns which can hold no water, as the Scripture says. But they are cisterns broken, and holding no water, which your own teachers have digged, as the Scripture also expressly asserts, 'teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' And besides, they beguile themselves and you, supposing that the everlasting kingdom will be assuredly given to those of the dispersion who are of Abraham after the flesh, although they be sinners, and faithless, and disobedient towards God, which the Scriptures have proved is not the case. For if so, Isaiah would never have said this: 'And unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah.' And Ezekiel: 'Even if Noah, and Jacob, and Daniel were to pray for sons or daughters, their request should not be granted.' But neither shall the father perish for the son, nor the son for the father; but every one for his own sin, and each shall be saved for his own righteousness.539 And again Isaiah says: 'They shall look on the carcases of them that have transgressed: their worm shall not cease, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.' And our Lord, according to the will of Him that sent Him, who is the Father and Lord of all, would not have said, 'They shall come from the east, and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.' Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded,543 that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God's fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.

5. Chapter XXVIII.—True Righteousness is Obtained by Christ.

a. And Trypho replied, "We heard you adducing this consideration a little ago, and we have given it attention: for, to tell the truth, it is worthy of attention; and that answer which pleases most—namely, that so it seemed good to Him—does not satisfy me. For this is ever the shift to which those have recourse who are unable to answer the question."

b. Then I said, "Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ's coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hear yon. 'Break up your fallow ground, 'Jeremiah has cried to the people, 'and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart.' Do not sow, therefore, among thorns, and in untilled ground, whence you can have no fruit. Know Christ; and behold the fallow ground, good, good and fat, is in your hearts. 'For, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will visit all them that are circumcised in their foreskins; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the sons of Moab. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.'74 Do you see how that God does not mean this circumcision which is given for a sign? For it is of no use to the Egyptians, or the sons of Moab, or the sons of Edom. But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings. But I will lay before you, my friends, the very words of God, when He said to the people by Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, 'I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I shall not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for from the rising of the sun unto its setting My name shall be glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place a sacrifice is offered unto My name, even a pure sacrifice: for My name is honoured among the Gentiles, saith the Lord; but ye profane it.' And by David He said, 'A people whom I have not known, served Me; at the hearing of the ear they obeyed Me.'

While I do find this post informative from a historical perspective, Justin Martyr does not necessarily represent the doctrines and views of everyone of his generation, nor does his doctrine necessarily represent all that was taught by the Apostles which is why I look to the text of scripture as my final authority and to no other source and it is against the text of scripture to which all teachings are compared.

Any teachings that are found inconsistent with the full counsel of scripture on any given subject that the scripture teaches on, needs to be rejected and denounced as a false doctrine but the reason why there are so many diverse doctrines in the Church today is because of the failure of the Church throughout its history to look to the scriptures alone for doctrine and to rely solely on the sufficiency thereof.

Whose doctrines and views did he not represent?

"This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 1

"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham..."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34, Paragraph 1



As did the historical defenders of the true faith for eighteen centuries.

Why do the declarations of dispensational modernism disagree with theirs?

The intended point was that in order to determine what the established consensus, if any, was on any given doctrine in any generation, the stated positions of many people within the Church would have to be examined, not just one or even two and while that would be a worthy undertaking, it would be a time consuming process.


Even those known to be historical defenders of the faith did not agree with one another regarding certain doctrines and that the firm establishment and mainstream acceptance of what is identified as Preterist doctrine was accredited to Origen and to a greater extent Augustine, gives clear indication that doctrines similar to those associated with Dispensationalism were still accepted and taught by many within the Church beforehand. Dispensationalism is nothing new nor recent within Church history but was suppressed and out of the mainstream for several centuries.

It matters not how many people are consulted or how much time is consumed, for there was virtually undisputed unanimity across the centuries, from the second to the eighteenth, that the Church is the New Testament Israel of God.

From the aforecited ECFs Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, to the post-Reformation's

John Wesley:

Galatians 6
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

And as many as walk according to this rule — 1. Glorying only in the cross of Christ. 2. Being crucified to the world. And, 3. Created anew. Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule.

The message was clear, consistent, unfailing, and unanimous.
There was no disagreement regarding the identity of the Church.
Among recognized defenders of the true faith, from the second century to the eighteenth, it was unfailingly declared to be, and is, the true Israelitic race (Justin Martyr), the seed of Abraham (Irenaeus), and the New Testament Israel of God (Wesley).
Amen.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
It does if you want to prove that there was unanimity and while on the surface there may appeared and three sources across the several centuries are not enough to settle the matter; not when there are other sources to examine and there are many.

This may very well have been the prevailing view of the day, but the text out the cited passage from Galatians itself does not say that the Israel of God is the Church. That is an interpretation that has been imposed upon the text and just because a certain doctrine may have been a prevailing doctrine at a certain time in history, that does not mean that doctrine was sound.
That is why the text itself has the final say, not a mere interpretation of it, for the text was designed to speak for itself and be its own interpreter.

jgr said: ↑
We await the name of a recognized historical defender of the true faith who imposed a dispensational interpretation which contradicted the interpretation of the cited defenders.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
We could probably find some by taking the time to research, but that you only cited two names from that century tells me that you are no expert on that period of time yourself.

jgr said: ↑
Awaiting.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
How many figures from the second century can you actually name yourself? You have yet to prove your expertise. I will admit that I am not.

jgr said: ↑
I've named two.
You've named none.
Awaiting.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
You still haven't told me why Origen and Augstine were given credit for establishing the doctrine of replacement theology and the two sources you cited were not.

jgr said: ↑
Awaiting.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
Awaiting an answer as to why the sources you cited are not given credit for making the doctrines of Preterism the prevailing view in the Church for several centuries instead of Origen and Augustine who lived during the third and fourth centuries.

jgr said: ↑
My request preceded yours.
Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.
Awaiting.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
That is if you really have an answer.

You first.

Interesting exchange brethren........

 

[Contenders Edge]

The permanent land promise is found below, written in God's Word.
You have to ignore it to make your doctrine work.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, after this earth is "burned up", and "dissolved".
I am looking for the same thing.

.

I am not ignoring the cited passages but your doctrine only works if God is not powerful enough to make the nation of Israel a part of the better country we look to in order to fulfill His promises to them or if He is not able change the corruptible to the incorruptible.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not ignoring the cited passages but your doctrine only works if God is not powerful enough to make the nation of Israel a part of the better country we look to in order to fulfill His promises to them or if He is not able change the corruptible to the incorruptible.

It would be you who is the one thinking God is not powerful enough to fulfill His promises to Israel, by ignoring Hebrews 11:13-16, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

The corruptible has been changed to incorruptible in both of those passages.

Either you are confused, or those who recorded God's Word are confused.

.

 

[jgr]

Perhaps you don't really don't know the answer.

If you answer, I'll answer.

Awaiting.

 

[jgr]

Interesting exchange brethren........

Not to mention puerile.

You know you're talking to a dispensationalist when __________________.

 

[keras]

Not to mention puerile.

You know you're talking to a dispensationalist when __________________.

This whole issue of Church and Israel has been resolved here many times:
There is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, + . That People consists of Christians from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.

The people who currently live in a small part of the holy Land and call themselves Jews, but who reject Christianity, face Judgment and punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18, + 100 O.T. prophesies.

Unfortunately, this cannot be accepted by those who believe in the 'rapture'.
They must have the Jews, who have wrongly taken the title of Israel, as a separate entity in God's Plan, while they go to live in heaven. That this theory is beyond sci-fi and the wildest imaginings of even Hollywood, doesn't faze them.

What is really unfortunate, is how 'rapture' believers don't see or understand the great Blessings that God will give to those who stand firm in their Christian faith during all that is plainly prophesied to happen from now until Jesus Returns. Galatians 3:14

 

[nolidad]

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



“The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.

.

Yes yes you have thrown that out like rotting garbage many times before! But why should I accept your allegorical interpretations as more valid than so many others?

 

[nolidad]

Not to mention puerile.

You know you're talking to a dispensationalist when __________________.

OH I know this one!!!

YOu know you are talking to a dispensationalist when: They do not have to reinterpret Scripture but take prophecies at face value and expect God to live up to His Promises!

 

[nolidad]

Agree...............

Still waiting , now on two different threads for you to show the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls and to identify the beast and what his mark was prior to 70AD.

 

[nolidad]

The word "almost" in your post above reveals the truth.

You are very well aware that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost.
You are also very well aware that about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant on that day.
They were a part of the "remnant" of Israel found in Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:5.

The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is found in Matthew 1:1, and Luke 24:25-27, and Galatians 3:16.


.

No Pewter did not address the crowd as all the house of Israel-He was making a proclamation to the crowd assembled that all Israel should know that Jesus who was crucified is both Lord and Christ.

Grammar matters.

No 3,000 did not accept the new covenant that day- 3,000 received Christ as Messiah and were added tpo the church that day! That is a difference! They became partakers of the New Covenant.

Teh New covenant refers to the whole house of Israel and Judah as it says in Scripture!

Yes they are part of the remanat! But one day the veil will be taken away from teh whole house of Israel and Judah, and once the pleroma of Gentiles is added to the church- then ALL Israel will be saved as is written in the Scriptures!

No the ultimate fulfilment is not found in those passages! Some of the covenants are fulfilled in Jesus- but God promised Israel a kingdom which was confirmed to Isaac and Jacob- not just Abraham!

When Jesus physically returns and establishes His kingdom- Israel will rule the earth as promised, the apostles will sit on 12 thrones judging Israel as written and the church will co-reign with Christ as His bride as written.

 

[nolidad]

Mat 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
Mat 24:2 and Jesus said to them, 'Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'

Is the second Jewish temple still standing in Jerusalem?
If it is not, Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse.

.

Wrong again!

The disciples asked Jesus three specific questions.

1. when will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of Jesus Coming?
3. when will the end of the age be?

Jesus answered all three in the olivet discourse. Parts of Which are found in Matthew and parts in Luke!
But as for the destruction of the temple?

Luke 21 answers the statement and question of Matthew 24 as to when the temple would be destroyed:

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

LUKE 22:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now where nearly all allegorists and covenant theologians go wrong is this:

They equate Luke 22: 21-24 as being the same as Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

but they are very different based on the language used without re-interpretation! ONe is a sign to flee when you see an army surrounding Jerusalem, the other is to flee when a person enters the holy of holies!

 

[nolidad]

How many Old Testaments are there?

My Bible contains one. Yours?

Why are the Abrahamic, Palestinian and Davidic Covenants not separate individual Old Testaments as well?

Because they are encapsulated as multiple bequests to the one Heir of the one Old Testament, in the same way as your own one last Will and Testament contains multiple bequests to your heir(s).

Who is the one Heir of all of the Old Testament bequests?

Scripture leaves no doubt.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.


Get with the covenant program.

Why are they not? Because they are covenants and not testaments.

Why don't you get with the dispensational program and realize this what Paul said:

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

These were the Covenant made with Abraham which included the Palestinian and Davidic covenant.
And reconfirmed to Isaac and Jacob.

also the New covenant did not dis-annul the Noahic Covenant either!

YOu know the rainbow, taking am,mans life if they take a mans life, eating everything but blood? that was not dis annulled either! Just the Mosaic Covenant (the law) was fulfilled!

Nor were the unconditional promised God made to the nation of Israel during the time of the Mosaic law dis annulled.

what were some of these?
1. Israel would reject their Messiah
2. god would scatter them to the four corners of the earth
3. They would be a hiss and byword amongst the gentiles.
4. They would be regathered again ion the last days.
5. They would under the rod of Gods judgment (via the gentiles) to purge out the unbeliever.
6. God would rejoin Israel and Judah again.
7. All of them would know the Lord.
8. They would have their kingdom with their King (Jesus)
9. Every year the gentile nations would have to come to pay tribute to Israel. If they didn't, their nation would be punished.

These are but a few promises yet to come to pass. I believe God when He says HE WILL do something!

 

[BABerean2]

Wrong again!

The disciples asked Jesus three specific questions.

1. when will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of Jesus Coming?
3. when will the end of the age be?

Jesus answered all three in the olivet discourse. Parts of Which are found in Matthew and parts in Luke!
But as for the destruction of the temple?

Luke 21 answers the statement and question of Matthew 24 as to when the temple would be destroyed:

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

LUKE 22:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now where nearly all allegorists and covenant theologians go wrong is this:

They equate Luke 22: 21-24 as being the same as Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

but they are very different based on the language used without re-interpretation! ONe is a sign to flee when you see an army surrounding Jerusalem, the other is to flee when a person enters the holy of holies!

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:


Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)



Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　



Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution


Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


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[BABerean2]

No Pewter did not address the crowd as all the house of Israel-He was making a proclamation to the crowd assembled that all Israel should know that Jesus who was crucified is both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Either you are confused, or Peter was confused on the Day of Pentecost.

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