Catholic miracles defy any explanations

[packermann]

And taking a damned destitute sinner like me, washing me clean giving me a new heart and adopting me as His child.

That is great! But, unfortunately, there can be psychological explanations for this. And what happens when you go through a valley, and your heart does not feel that clean anymore?

 

[packermann]

A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith, but God may work among any people anywhere at any time, so I can neither judge these particular ones nor recognize them.

But even the resurrection of Christ is a miracle. Should a mature faith go beyond that? Do you recognize the resurrection of Christ?

 

[dzheremi]

But even the resurrection of Christ is a miracle. Should a mature faith go beyond that? Do you recognize the resurrection of Christ?

What? Is this a serious question? Of course I recognize Christ's resurrection.

I don't know what that has to do with what I posted, which was very generalized on purpose.

 

[John P. Alexander]

I guess you threw down the gauntlet there.

Many Catholic "miracles" don't give me a sense of awe and wonder and peace. Rather they creep me out and make me believe they come from dark origins.

 

[packermann]

A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith, but God may work among any people anywhere at any time, so I can neither judge these particular ones nor recognize them.

Is not the resurrection of Christ a miracle? Is not the Incarnation a miracle? So a mature faith is one not based on the Incarnation or the resurrection of Christ???

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 1:16

Peter was telling his readers to base their faith on the miracle of the transfiguration as he was an eyewitness of this event. Without objective miracles attested by eyewitnesses, we do not know if we are merely following cleverly devised myths. How would we know that Christianity is true and Mormonism is false? Or that Islam is false? Is it because of an inner feeling that we call "faith". But a Mormon has this as well! He will say that his faith gives him a quiver in his liver and a blessing in his bosom. So how would you determine who has the valid feelings?

 

[Athanasius377]

That is tremendously awesome! But I think that after 2,000 years it has lost some of its apologetic appeal. More contemporary miracles can more attest to the claims of Christ than what happened two centuries ago.

I once met an atheist who said that we cannot be sure what happened before the invention of the printing press. Although I would disagree with him, he would not be impress with Jesus rising from the dead.

I am not dismissing the other miracles with the possibility of Padre Pio and frankly I am not sure. I’ve heard compelling evidence either way. What I would say is I would hang my hat on THE miracle since it is what our Christian Faith is based on. If someone were to find the bones of Jesus moldering in the Judean desert I’m done with Christianity. Recall 1 cor 15. It’s the standard by which we as believers are judged. If someone were to prove that all the miracles were fake that have zero impact on my apologetic and truthfully that of Rome.
As to your atheist friend if that is his standard then he will have a heck of a time proving that anything happened prior to the 15th century. His standard is not how historians do history in any epoch. Furthermore what is the reasoning for making the dividing line the invention of the printing press? Seems rather arbitrary to me. Why not since the advent of the photograph? Why not since we have been alive? Your atheist friend really doesn’t need to be convinced on the existence of God. He already knows God exists but he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness according to Rom 1. The fact is no evidence will ever be enough for him. Lastly when one presents all the evidence who gets to judge whether Gid exists? An atheist? So an atheist gets to stand in Judgement of almighty God? That seems a backwards way of doing apologetics to allow for that presupposition to be the baseline.

 

[Markie Boy]

A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith, but God may work among any people anywhere at any time, so I can neither judge these particular ones nor recognize them.

Agreed! I know too many Catholics that know about many miracles and apparitions, but don't know scripture much. They are therefore not able to do as we are told and test them against Scripture. All too often I meet them not only following the ones approved by the RCC, but all kinds of other ones which range from questionable to fraudulent, to possibly bad origin.

 

[His student]

These miracles validate the claims of the Catholic faith.

I'm assuming you mean the Roman Catholic faith?

That's the biggest reason I don't believe in the likes of the Shroud of Turin, the preserved foreskin of Jesus Christ, weeping statues of Mary, or any of these Roman Catholic so called miracles either.

God doesn't authenticate false teachings of any kind let alone that of a false priesthood that claims the power to dole out salvation to the laity through special powers like changing pieces of bread and cups of wine with strange memorized rituals.

Obviously you disagree.

 

[dzheremi]

Is not the resurrection of Christ a miracle? Is not the Incarnation a miracle? So a mature faith is one not based on the Incarnation or the resurrection of Christ???

What are you talking about? I feel like you're trying to create an argument with me when none is needed, appropriate, or intended. I was talking about the types of miracles you mentioned in the OP -- these distinctly 'Catholic miracles' (i.e., not shared by any other Church) that supposedly defy any explanation and apparently are a source of strengthening the faith of the Catholics.

There is no direct connection between these and the mystery of the incarnation, or Christ's resurrection, or any of this, because these are commonly affirmed -- i.e., any Christian will affirm them by virtue of being Christian. So it's not really the same thing as distinctly Catholic miracles like stigmata or the events at Fatima.

You seem to be saying "But other things are miracles, and surely you believe in them!", which...yes. Of course. But I don't believe in distinctly Catholic miracles, because I'm not a Catholic.

Without objective miracles attested by eyewitnesses, we do not know if we are merely following cleverly devised myths.

Who's 'we' -- you have a mouse in your pocket? I do not see any threat to the faith by saying that we are not to base our belief in miracles. Christ is not some kind of magician, calling up demonstrations of His power on demand. "A wicked generation and adulterous generation seeks after a sign", remember? And Who said it? It is not a denial of the miracles we hold in common to say that miracles are not the basis of a strong faith, since after all as you have already seen in this thread there are people who not only disbelieve in the 'Catholic' miracles, but assert those of their own Church to be altogether more believable. So are you going to have a 'miracle war' or a 'miracle duel', then? I should hope not. Such things are silliness and distract from the true faith in Christ. My own Church also has its share of miracles (both before and after the Chalcedonian schism, down to the present day), but you don't see me bringing them up, because I do not want to add to that kind of environment.

How would we know that Christianity is true and Mormonism is false? Or that Islam is false? Is it because of an inner feeling that we call "faith".

No, it is not because of feelings -- it is because of the reality that Christ is risen, that He is with us when we gather together to worship and to receive His holy body and precious blood, and that He will come again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, and that those of us who have served Him as good and faithful servants will thereby receive the gift of everlasting life in heaven, where we will praise Him and His Good Father and the Holy Spirit forever, as we did on earth but then before the throne of God with all of the saints and angels.

That's not a 'feeling' -- that's some things that happened and some things that are promised to happen. We know that He Who had to fulfill the law has come, and we furthermore believe in Christ's promises, and worship the Holy Trinity as God Himself has come to us and taught us the true faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- the One God.

But a Mormon has this as well!

Mormonism has nothing. Mormonism has ~15 million deceived people who do not worship God, but instead Joseph Smith and the gods of his overactive imagination.

He will say that his faith gives him a quiver in his liver and a blessing in his bosom. So how would you determine who has the valid feelings?

You don't trust feelings in the first place. Remember Jeremiah 17:9. You trust He Who has come and been victorious over death and sin by His power, and the One Who sent Him, and the One Who is sent in His name. You trust He Who of His own will gave up His life so that we may live, and took it up again so that we may know that He is God, the Just Judge both now and on the last day. You trust the Lord our God, the creator of all that is and ever will be, the eternal God Who is rightly called the Pantocrator and Philanthropos (ruler over all and lover of mankind), Who taught us from His holy mouth the perfect faith which He authored and finished for our salvation. He makes miracles as He pleases as a confirmation that He is with His people. I am only observing that if we require that of Him, as the Pharisees attempted to test and trap Him by, we do not have a mature faith, and should not be surprised when the miracles that sustain us cease, or when we are told one way or another that we are being as the wicked and adulterous.

And I'm not even saying that this is what you have done in the first place, only making a general comment in an attempt to head off the Chalcedonian miracle war that seemed to be brewing, since we can all claim miracles and yet no one is moving from their respective communions. So I am naturally skeptical of the miracles of others, as I would expect them to be of any 'OO miracles' I could but won't present.

 

[Markie Boy]

I'm assuming you mean the Roman Catholic faith?

That's the biggest reason I don't believe in the likes of the Shroud of Turin, the preserved foreskin of Jesus Christ, weeping statues of Mary, or any of these Roman Catholic so called miracles either.

God doesn't authenticate false teachings of any kind let alone that of a false priesthood that claims the power to dole out salvation to the laity through special powers like changing pieces of bread and cups of wine with strange memorized rituals.

Obviously you disagree.

My goodness - statements like this show such a lack of respect for Scripture and the first 200 years of Christianity I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[GingerBeer]

By comparison, Protestants do not look for such events to prove to them that the promises of the Bible are trustworthy.

Protestants and Catholics both don't look for miracles to prove that the promises in the scriptures are trustworthy. The matters that divide Protestants from Catholics are to do with interpreting the scriptures. No miracles can prove a specific interpretation is trustworthy. And there is no single protestant interpretation anyway. The matters that separate protestants from one another are multitudinous and no miracles prove any specific protestant church to be trustworthy in contradistinction from all others.

 

[Albion]

Protestants and Catholics both don't look for miracles to prove that the promises in the scriptures are trustworthy.

That's right. The types of miracles described in the OP appeal to Catholics and verify their faith. That is obvious from the OP itself!

But Protestants, generally speaking, do not look for or need such extraordinary gestures from God in order to believe or to have their faith confirmed..

 

[zoidar]

Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know...God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
Acts 2: 22, 32

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12

This was a great argument for the claims of Christ. He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, which certified that He was sent by God. On top of that, God has raised Jesus from the dead, and the apostles are witnesses of this. But this happened 2,000 years ago. Eyewitness testimony has lost its impact over this much time. But God, in His mercy, has given us even more amazing miracles within just the last two centuries, even some miracles that are still going on. The only problem is that these miracles are with the Catholic faith. But they certify that Jesus is the Son of God. Here are the highlights.

1. Miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima

It may seem odd that the sun is moving, since we know that the sun is stationary, at least in reference to the earth. Any actual, sudden movement of the sun would be a catastrophic to our solar system. And yet this is supported in the Bible, where God caused the sun to stand still (Joshua 10:12-14). In the case in Fatima and in the Book of Joshua, it is not that the sun was actually seen to dance or that the sun stood still. It is what the people observed. God can bend the sun's light rays so that it appears that the sun is dancing or that sun has stood still. It miracle is the bending of the sun's rays that makes it appears to us as dancing or standing still.

In 1917 the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to three children several times at Fatima, Portugal. The last visit there were over 70,000 onlookers. But only the children could see and hear our Lady. One of the children, Lucia, then pointed up at the sky and shouted "Look at the sun!". The sun started to move around the sky, and started coming towards them. The people started to scream, thinking it being the end of the world. Then the sun went back in place.

Mind you, these were over thousands of people who witnessed this phenomenom. Critics say that this was a case of a mass hallucination. The problem with this is that people who lived in Fatima but did not go to the site and yet that they saw the movement of the sun. Not only that, the movement of the sun was even in the secular newpaper the next day.

How the Miracle of the Sun dazzled the sceptics | Catholic Herald

2. Incorruptible bodies of dead saints

Bodies of dead Catholic saints have decayed little or not at all! Critics explain this by saying that their bodies were preserved because they were buried in a dry place. But in many cases, these bodies were buried with other bodies of those who were not saints. The others were nor preserved.
My favorite is St Bernadette. Although she died 150 years ago, she looks as if she is just sleeping! See image below.

3. Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe

Mary appeared to a Mexican peasant over two hundred years ago. She wrapped some roses in a tilma (a Mexican cloak made of burlap) to give to the bishop. When the bishop saw this, he saw an image of Mary painted on the tilma.

In the past century, the Catholic Church allowed experts to investigate. Artists tried to duplicate the image on other tilmas, but on burlap the paint would run together. Scientist discovered that the pigments was not any pigments on earth. What is even more amazing is that scientists magnified Mary's eyes and found that the pupils contained images of people! How could any artist 500 years ago do anything such as that?

https://magiscenter.com/the-science-or-lack-thereof-behind-juan-diegos-tilma/

4. Eucharistic miracles

There are many eucharistic miracles, but my favorite has been the miracle in Lanciano, Italy, which happened 500 years ago. the priest accidentally dropped the Eucharist on the floor while giving communion. It no longer appeared as a host but as a piece of meat. The church has had it on display since then.

This past century, the Church has allowed scientists to examine this. It found that this meat was tissue from a person who recently died, and yet this was on display for centuries!

5 Extraordinary Eucharistic Miracles that Left Physical Evidence (With Pictures!) | ChurchPOP

5. Stigmata

Many saints have had the stigmata - who have deep wounds on their hands and possibly also their feet. This points back to our Savior having nails driven through His nails and feet. The earliest stigmatic I can recall was St Francis of Assisi. The latest has been St. Padre Pio in the last century. The Catholic Church at that time thought that St Pio induced these wounds on himself. Because of this, he was forbidden to give Mass. But thousands came to see him. After he died, the wound on his hands immediately healed.

Mystery of Padre Pio´s Stigmata Analyzed by Scientist - ZENIT - English

6. Venerable Solanus Casey And St. Andre Bissette

This monk was not considered to be intelligent enough to offer Mass or to hear Confessions. So he was just given the job of a receptionist. But he talked to people as they came to visit the monastery. He prayed over them. And miracles started to happen. People all over the country came to Detroit to get healed! This happened just this past century.
Metro Detroiters share their miraculous memories of Father Solanus Casey

Also, the same thing can be said of Brother Andre in Canada.

Brother André: The Rocket Richard of miracles


7. Healings at Lourdes

In the 1800's Mary commanded a peasant girl at Lourdes to dig in the ground with her hands. Water started to seep out. Eventually, the water became a huge lake. And when people bathed in the water, many of them were healed. Even people to this day come to Lourdes for healing. The Church is very careful about declaring these to be real healings. They have a panel of doctors to examine each one. These doctors would be sceptics in most cases. If they can explain any healing with a scientific explanation, then the Church would not declare it to be an actual miracle. There are at least 70 cases that have no scientific explanation. This does not mean that the others were not miracles - it only means that it is possible that there is some other explanation. There have been those who say that they have debunked these miracle. But as with the resurrection of Christ, these debunking seem to me to stem from an anti-supernaturalistic bias (or, in case of these Catholic miracles, it could also be an anti-Catholic bias).

The Lourdes miracle that brought a Nobel prize-winning doctor to faith

This peasant girl was St Bernadette, who has the corruptible body I mentioned above.

Even if one or two of these can be explained away (which I do not think can be done), it is difficult to explain away all seven of these miracles. These miracles validate the claims of the Catholic faith. But more importantly, it attests the truth claims of Christianity. There is no other religion that can attest of miracles that can come even close to these.

Some of such stories I believe is pure myth. Others might be true. Of course miracles happen. A woman I know got a visit by Jesus. He appeared in front of her in her kitchen.

 

[zoidar]

Orthodoxy has many miracles as well, and they're more believable. We have the fullest truth.

Why don't you share some of the Orthodox miracles if the OP is ok with that?

 

[redleghunter]

That is great! But, unfortunately, there can be psychological explanations for this. And what happens when you go through a valley, and your heart does not feel that clean anymore?

It wasn’t psychological. That’s why it was a miracle.

Been through the dark valley many times and as in Psalm 23 The Good Shepherd was always there.

I don’t need the sun to stop. Don’t demand a sign as our Lord said “only an adulterous generation seeks a sign.”

He told that group that the only sign they would get was the sign of Jonah. Which referred to Christ’s Resurrection.

The NT testifies the Gospel comes with Power. Indeed it does today as souls each day are being regenerated and saved. Praise be to God!

 

[GingerBeer]

That's right. The types of miracles described in the OP appeal to Catholics and verify their faith. That is obvious from the OP itself!

But Protestants, generally speaking, do not look for or need such extraordinary gestures from God in order to believe or to have their faith confirmed..

You are correct about Protestants not needing (or maybe wanting) miracles to confirm their specific doctrines. Protestants rely on interpreting scripture to arrive at specific doctrines. Different protestant churches arrive at different doctrines by differing interpretations of scripture. No miracles are forthcoming, relied upon, or desired as proofs that one specific set of doctrines are trustworthy and the others are not. Some Pentecostal churches rely on prophecy and miracles as evidence for their specific teachings - this applies to churches like the "oneness churches".

Some Catholics point to miracles (like the original post in this thread) as evidence for the trustworthiness of the Catholic church. That is a mistake in my opinion because discovering exactly what doctrine is proved by a miracle is very difficult if not impossible. In scripture miracles appear to certify the messenger who works them rather than certifying specific teachings that come from the miracle worker. One presumes that a certified prophet who works miracles as the means of his or her certification is reliable and trustworthy in the messages that they deliver as messages from God. I guess the OP is pointing to miracles to certify the saints and others involved in the miracle working as carrying messages from God. But does the Catholic church claim that a miracle working saint is a certified prophet? I do not think that they do. So miracles are not likely to be proof that Catholicism is right and all others are not as right as they.

 

[redleghunter]

Some of such stories I believe is pure myth. Others might be true. Of course miracles happen. A woman I know got a visit by Jesus. He appeared in front of her in her kitchen.

Was Jesus wearing sandals?

 

[zoidar]

Was Jesus wearing sandals?

I don't know. Does that matter?

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know. Does that matter?

I’ve heard similar claims. Apparently in all the ones I hear Jesus is not wearing sandals but described much like the Medieval era paintings.

 

[dqhall]

From 1906 - 1915 there were miraculous healings and speaking in tongues reported at the Azusa Street revival in Los Angeles. I have read of numerous other miracles. I know some people wanted to serve the Lord in the medical field and did such works as cataract surgery to give sight to those going blind. It is like the faith of a mustard seed that grew over a man’s head in the few months of rainy season in the Golan Heights of Israel.