Angry Men

[2PhiloVoid]

I know my share of atheists. But none of them are angry or disenfranchised either. All of them take exception to negative stereotypes of men and boys and call out their sex as well.

They are controlled men who are matter of fact, exacting, and very intelligent. I would say their greatest flaw is pride. But its not the sort that breeds overconfidence. They’re self-aware but willing to listen and consider other perspectives. Sound arguments devoid of histrionics and straw men attempts fare best. Needless to say, we get along. ;-)

I imagine you have your own ideas on this subject.

"Controlled men"? Where are these guys at?

....we've apparently run in crowds with different kinds of atheists. My past experiences, unfortunately, have been permeated by what seems to be an epidemic of "Nietzche - ism" among my fellow philosophy students way back when. You seem to run in a more, perhaps, cosmopolitan crowd.

All I know is that these guys, while more or less reasonable and congenial in conversation, still had a penchant to gripe severely about Christianity, even after time in prison. (NO, not mine; theirs!) They didn't seem to be in a frame of mind to want to ponder too closely about what I had to say, even if I empathized with them dearly about how bad all of our lives could suck. I even managed to do so without histrionics, most of the time.

 

[bèlla]

"Controlled men"? Where are these guys at?

They’re gentlemen. That’s the difference.

You seem to run in a more, perhaps, cosmopolitan crowd.

I wouldn’t call it that. But I will say decorum is a mainstay as is respect for differences. We needn’t agree on everything. That has enabled us to share perspectives we wouldn’t encounter elsewhere.

All I know is that these guys, while more or less reasonable and congenial in conversation, still had a penchant to gripe severely about Christianity, even after time in prison.

Have you considered the part your personality and outlook contribute to their disposition and presence? You enjoy debate and demonstrating your philosophical insight. That will draw a different audience than pleasing mannerisms. We’re dealing with different sandboxes.

They didn't seem to be in a frame of mind to want to ponder too closely about what I had to say, even if I empathized with them dearly about how bad all of our lives could suck. I even managed to do so without histrionics, most of the time.

I would posit your approach and countenance are too like their own to bridge the gap. You’re more likely to ruffle their feathers than smooth them.

That isn’t a fault of personality per se. You are operating from a desire to persuade and have invested yourself in their agreement to a point where they perceive it as conflict not compassion.

I lead with love, kindness, and lots of grace. I save my sledgehammer for prayer and boundaries. No one was ever won by hammering. A soft word is best. ;-)

 

[durangodawood]

"Controlled men"? Where are these guys at?

....we've apparently run in crowds with different kinds of atheists. My past experiences, unfortunately, have been permeated by what seems to be an epidemic of "Nietzche - ism" among my fellow philosophy students way back when. You seem to run in a more, perhaps, cosmopolitan crowd.

All I know is that these guys, while more or less reasonable and congenial in conversation, still had a penchant to gripe severely about Christianity, even after time in prison. (NO, not mine; theirs!) They didn't seem to be in a frame of mind to want to ponder too closely about what I had to say, even if I empathized with them dearly about how bad all of our lives could suck. I even managed to do so without histrionics, most of the time.

Hmm. I didnt think philosophy students were the type to end up in jail.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmm. I didnt think philosophy students were the type to end up in jail.

Not all of them do.

 

[durangodawood]

Not all of them do.

I personally know at least one who is currently at large. So I agree.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I personally know at least one who is currently at large. So I agree.

Awesome response! *rofl*

 

[2PhiloVoid]

They’re gentlemen. That’s the difference.

And do these guys have a sense of humor, or are they all devotees of the likes of Marcus Aurelius?

I wouldn’t call it that. But I will say decorum is a mainstay as is respect for differences. We needn’t agree on everything. That has enabled us to share perspectives we wouldn’t encounter elsewhere.

Decorum is a useful thing, I must admit. But sometimes...................don't you just want to run around with half a bear-rug around your waist, screaming at people and eating locusts with wild (unfiltered) honey? I mean, sometimes freedom from the usual strictures can be a very liberating thing. ...Or at least, that's what I've read somewhere.

Have you considered the part your personality and outlook contribute to their disposition and presence? You enjoy debate and demonstrating your philosophical insight. That will draw a different audience than pleasing mannerisms. We’re dealing with different sandboxes.

Oh, I've considered it. I've also considered that I'm surrounded by a lot of very, very serious people...who need a friend and need to loosen up just a tad bit. Maybe. And then again, maybe I'm just a scoundrel (question mark).

I would posit your approach and countenance are too like their own to bridge the gap. You’re more likely to ruffle their feathers than smooth them.

Truthfully, my dear Sherlock (notice I didn't assume that because you're a woman that I'd put you in second place with Watson), I was kind of aiming to "ruffle" more than feathers.

That isn’t a fault of personality per se. You are operating from a desire to persuade and have invested yourself in their agreement to a point where they perceive it as conflict not compassion.

Actually, it is my fault, and someone else's, really, but I'm under no real expectation that most folks will agree with me, for various biblical reasons. And that's ok, because I'll just keep loving those folks anyway.

I lead with love, kindness, and lots of grace. I save my sledgehammer for prayer and boundaries. No one was ever won by hammering. A soft word is best. ;-)

And I'm sure you're wonderfully endowed with those very gifts, sister LaBèlla, and I shan't be attempting to deter you from doing the Lord's work in the way that he has gifted and suited you.

Peace.

 

[bèlla]

And do these guys have a sense of humor, or are they all devotees of the likes of Marcus Aurelius?

They’re witty and mischievous. I wouldn’t call them stoics. They can be sarcastic too. ;-)

Decorum is a useful thing, I must admit. But sometimes...................don't you just want to run around with half a bear-rug around your waist, screaming at people and eating locusts with wild (unfiltered) honey? I mean, sometimes freedom from the usual strictures can be a very liberating thing. ...Or at least, that's what I've read somewhere.

This is more my style.

Oh, I've considered it. I've also considered that I'm surrounded by a lot of very, very serious people...who need a friend and need to loosen up just a tad bit. Maybe. And then again, maybe I'm just a scoundrel (question mark).

No comment. ~lol

Truthfully, my dear Sherlock (notice I didn't assume that because you're a woman that I'd put you in second place with Watson), I was kind of aiming to "ruffle" more than feathers.

I know. I’ve seen my share of mental jousting and done my bit as well. But I try to avoid it. Especially on matters of faith.

Actually, it is my fault, and someone else's, really, but I'm under no real expectation that most folks will agree with me, for various biblical reasons. And that's ok, because I'll just keep loving those folks anyway.

Good. That will have a greater impact in the long run. They’re watching you.

And I'm sure you're wonderfully endowed with those very gifts, sister LaBèlla, and I shan't be attempting to deter you from doing the Lord's work in the way that he has gifted and suited you.

Peace.

I’m feminine and know my place. It enables me to minister to strong-willed traditionalists. But I’m less effective with others. I assume He has more qualified people for those cases.

 

[~Zao~]

I’m feminine and know my place. It enables me to minister to strong-willed traditionalists. But I’m less effective with others. I assume He has more qualified people for those cases.

Knowing your place, if not in the heavenliness, is a waste of time.
Your role may well be that, just as another man may see the position of wind beneath another's wings more the role that they're passionate about. I prefer a real person to feminine or masculine, fleshly role playing. Not to say that the flesh doesn't have it’s place either.

 

[Paidiske]

The woman is the soul and the man is the spirit.

I'm not even sure what you mean by this, but it sounds alarmingly as if you're suggesting women aren't as "spiritual" as men.

I’m feminine and know my place. It enables me to minister to strong-willed traditionalists. But I’m less effective with others. I assume He has more qualified people for those cases.

Maybe differently qualified. I couldn't care less about being "feminine" and the idea of "knowing my place" makes me feel ill, and I don't do well with the sort of strong-minded traditionalists who think women should "know their place." They're very hard to love. But there are other men to whom I'm able to minister well.

 

[Noxot]

I'm not even sure what you mean by this, but it sounds alarmingly as if you're suggesting women aren't as "spiritual" as men.

It's a symbol. Just like the moon can represent the soul and church while the spirit represents the stars or sun. The moon has no light of her own. The Greek word for soul is related to "cold". Eve was deceived, not Adam. They are patterns and symbols of inner conditions.

 

[Paidiske]

It's a symbol. Just like the moon can represent the soul and church while the spirit represents the stars or sun. The moon has no light of her own. The Greek word for soul is related to "cold". Eve was deceived, not Adam. They are patterns and symbols of inner conditions.

Ugh, this is so much "women are inferior" stuff. So men are like the sun, with light of their own, but women are dark, cold, deceived and with a worse-off "inner condition," in your view?

I utterly, utterly refute such a vile low view of women. We, too, are made in the image and likeness of God, and we too are heirs of the grace of Christ. We are not different or less.

 

[Noxot]

Ugh, this is so much "women are inferior" stuff. So men are like the sun, with light of their own, but women are dark, cold, deceived and with a worse-off "inner condition," in your view?

I utterly, utterly refute such a vile low view of women. We, too, are made in the image and likeness of God, and we too are heirs of the grace of Christ. We are not different or less.

No. like I said, God uses what is popular in mankind to communicate his higher truths. The outside appearance might be a garment of camels hair but God preserves his holy truth in the spiritual. The letter kills, the spirit gives life.

 

[Noxot]

In truth, there are very many "womanly men" in the church who usurp authority of the spirit due to them being brute beast and unable to receive the pure milk of the word. In fact most Christians appear to be ignorant of the depths the bible has.

 

[bèlla]

I prefer a real person to feminine or masculine, fleshly role playing. Not to say that the flesh doesn't have it’s place either.

Place is a reference to etiquette. It means the knowledge of your role in relation to that person. This guides the things we say and do.

 

[bèlla]

Maybe differently qualified. I couldn't care less about being "feminine" and the idea of "knowing my place" makes me feel ill, and I don't do well with the sort of strong-minded traditionalists who think women should "know their place." They're very hard to love. But there are other men to whom I'm able to minister well.

You are gauging my comment from the perspective of feminism and that wasn’t its intent. Place was long established before the movement was birthed.

All sinners are hard to love. Our biases and personal experiences influence the ones we choose to love and those we don’t.

@2PhiloVoid and I were discussing male atheists. Not patriarchy.

 

[bèlla]

Masculine and feminine were conveyed through symbolism of the sun and moon in many cultures and religions. It had nothing to do with superiority or inferiority. The symbols represented the attributes of each. Women were likened to the moon for its mystery. Not lack of warmth.

 

[Noxot]

I think it does not have to be only one thing. The Japanese thought the moon to be masculine. Mostly I think of coldness because the Greek word for soul is related to a Greek word for cold. Yes, a better meaning would express equality and difference like yin yang. The full moon is useful for vision at night. It's certainly beautiful and I can directly behold it unlike the sun. I do not claim to fully grasp what God means by sun and moon, the treasury is grand.

righty dividing the word shows a correct way to order our lives which means freedom from the bigotry of sinful humanity.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Yet hardly anyone wants to say that when we quiet our soul the holy spirit will give us words to say if we meet the requirements jesus speaks about. The bible first and foremost speaks of spiritual things. Don't make the tail the head. We are supposed to be the bride. Christ is supposed to teach, not us. Some have not grown in him enough and should not teach. But they create silly fables when they do.

 

[ananda]

What are the root causes of male disenfranchisement?

Inequality in the eyes of the (civil) law seems to be a huge root cause, IMO.

 

[bèlla]

@LaBèlla

In looking at the quite brief 'tif'(?) between you and @Paidiske, should we maybe explore the avenues of Angry Christian women? [Of course, we'd have to ask: Is there such a thing, really? ]

My comment to you elicited a negative response due to the association of the term in the reader’s mind. Everything has a place in God’s kingdom. We don’t randomly choose our position. He determines where we fit within the body. Much as He did with our fashioning.

An angry Christian woman should be a misnomer. It is the antithesis of our makeup. We lose our softness and pliability and become hardened and combative.

Contentious: Of persons or their dispositions: Given to contention; prone to strife or dispute; quarrelsome.

Proverbs mentions a contentious woman on three occasions:

It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife. —Proverbs 21:9

It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife. —Proverbs 25:24

A continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife are alike. —Proverbs 27:15

A persistent angry demeanor will lead to strife and disagreements. Especially with the opposite sex. In every instance her poor behavior is directed towards her spouse.

For me, this is an important reminder of the negative consequences of being combative. It’s off-putting and difficult to live with.

And suggests a propensity to continue the dispute beyond the point of tolerance. After a while the drip will get on your nerves and you’ll tune them out. That’s usually what happens.

The bible emphasizes self-control and the importance of guarding our words. This forestalls anger and nips it in the bud before things get out of hand. Meditating on these passages is beneficial for everyone.

Helpful verses:

Set a guard, O LORD, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips! —Psalm 141:3

When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent. —Proverbs 10:19

Whoever guards his mouth preserves his life; he who opens wide his lips comes to ruin. —Proverbs 13:3

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. —Proverbs 15:28

Whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city. —Proverbs 16:32

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. —Proverbs 17:27

Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense. —Proverbs 19:11

The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man? —Ecclesiastes 6:11

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. —1 Corinthians 13:1

Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. —James 1:19-20

An angry Christian woman cannot walk in love. All that she does is for naught. She must be willing to lay it down and give her anger and pain to God. We are never told to maintain it. To do so is foolish in His eyes.

Fool: One deficient in judgement or sense, one who acts or behaves stupidly, a silly person, a simpleton. (In Biblical use applied to vicious or impious persons.)

Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath! Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil. —Psalm 37:8

The vexation of a fool is known at once, but the prudent ignores an insult. —Proverbs 12:16

A man of quick temper acts foolishly, and a man of evil devices is hated. —Proverbs 14:17

A man of great wrath will pay the penalty, for if you deliver him, you will only have to do it again. —Proverbs 19:19

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back. —Proverbs 29:11

Be not quick in your spirit to become angry, for anger lodges in the heart of fools. —Ecclesiastes 7:9

Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger. —Ephesians 4:26

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. —Ephesians 4:31

But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. —Colossians 3:8

The bible makes no allowances for angry persons. Nor are we justified to respond in anger due to personal causes or social justice. Angry reactions are sinful and unloving.