We Sure Are Good At Messing Up The Trinity

[BCsenior]

God in Christianity by becoming man to save us ...
is already 10 thousand times better than Judaism and Islam.

Hey, bro' ... you're 10 thousand times right on!
Thanks for agreein' with me!

 

[Lady Bug]

I view the Trinity as something like this. The core of the Earth is the Earth. The mantle of the Earth is the Earth. The crust of the Earth is the Earth. All 3 are the Earth but they are not separate Earths. But all 3 make up the Earth.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Of course it is heresy. It clearly contradicts the teaching of the one Church Jesus Christ founded, to which He promised "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". He made it so clear! ONE Church. ONE guarantee of the fullness of truth. What more do we need? Yet, some proud men seem to think they can do a better job of founding church than God did. Thousands of conflicting denominations later, they are still claiming to be teaching the truth right out of the Bible. Are they blind? Truth cannot conflict with truth. Conflicting teachings always mean false teachings.

 

[GraceBro]

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

It is heresy.

"I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever!" Revelation 1:17-18

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”" John 8:58

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

“You, a mere man, claim to be God” John 10:33

"“Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." Acts 20:28

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ..." 2 Peter 1:1

"But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." Hebrews 1:8

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily ..." Colossians 2:9

...and so on.

 

[Anguspure]

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

He is the visible (4 dimensional) image of the Unseen God (Many dimensions).
He is to God what your image in the mirror is to you.
So by analogy: in a respect it is true that my image in the mirror is not me as such.
Also the image necessarily lacks many of the traits that I posses, this because of the limitations of being an image in a mirror.....and yet the image looks like me, talks like me, moves like me etc.
It would be silly to deny that the image in the mirror is me.
If someone was to come and point to the image saying "that is Angus", it would be hair splitting for another person to say: "No it isn't its only a representation". Even though the second person maybe technically correct, who else is the image in the mirror if it isn't me?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

There are some who falsely believe that Jesus was a created lesser god. I have talked with such a person back at TheologyOnline. While I don't know for sure, he may believe in the view that Jesus was created at some time before the beginning of creation. Meaning, he may be suggesting that Jesus is not an eternal being. We don't know for sure.

But in either case, saying that Jesus is not God is a huge problem. Indeed it is heresy. The Living Word (Who was made flesh) is the second person of the Godhead or Trinity. They are all one God and yet they exist as three distinct persons. To say that one persons of the Godhead is not God destroys the Trinity. This is wrong.

 

[DamianWarS]

Forgive me ... Christ means Messiah

I recommend you look up what Messiah means before you settle on this. Christ indeed means Messiah but messiah is not just some abstract title, it has meaning too, and it's meaning is saviour.

 

[joshuanchrist1045]

Fully God fully man. God in the flesh.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Although the Son is equal to the Father in an ontological sense, the Son and the Spirit are voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

 

[Strong in Him]

Another question (maybe until everyone understands) ...

Until we understand your opinion, maybe.
I notice there is no answer for, nor have to tried to discuss, the Scriptures I posted for you.

How could Someone stumbling around on earth consider Himself to be equal to Father God?

He was not "stumbling around on earth".
Jesus came here specifically with a purpose; he knew exactly who he was and what he was doing.

Now, the Word who came down from heaven was an equal Member of the Trinity,

Yes - and Jesus was the Word, John 1:14.

No One residing in a human body can consider Himself as being equal to Father God.

Unless that person is God himself.
Jesus was NOT the Father, he was, and is, the Son. There is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God.
This is an important, central Christian belief, and anyone who disagrees with the Trinity or rejects the deity of Christ should not be posting in this forum, which is for Christians only - see site rules.

 

[Anguspure]

Is it heresy?

Is putting forward an idea while trying to grasp a very abstract subject, that few if any of us truly understand, heresy?
Certainly the word has come to mean such a thing but the word from which it is translated (hairesis) also carries the meanings: discord or contention and divisiveness.
So when discussing heretical beliefs we also should be gentle and kind, affirming the belonging of the person holding the opinion, lest we become the source of division ourselves.
Of what good is truth if it does not guide a person towards The Truth, who is Love itself?

 

[AlexDTX]

That being said, what is the condition of Jesus Christ of Nazareth then and now? Is He?
God
Son of God
Word made Flesh
God in the Flesh
God the Father
The Holy Spirit
Man who is God
God who is Man
Savior
Redeemer
Lamb of God
Mediator
Shepard
Light of the world
Anointed one
Bread of life
The way
Son of David
Son of man
Prince of Peace
Emmanuel
....even more

Take your pick, Jesus Christ of Nazareth rules over Heaven and Earth no matter what anyone thinks.
Blessings

The man, Jesus of Nazareth, is no longer the man who walked in Galilee. He is the new creation, the first fruits of the dead, in the new glory of man fully united with God. What that means, I can not tell you. I can only echo Paul in the mystery of what the new creation truly means.

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[Kate30]

All true.

But when the majority (confessed Trinitarians like in this forum) condemn those who don't believe in the Trinity to Hell for teaching heresy and then can't present the Trinity in a way that avoids those same supposed Hell determining heresies - there's something dreadfully wrong with that picture.

His Student I guess some Christians may be some quicker with their condemnation of heresy than others. At the same time the Church has a responsibility to protect and defend crucial doctrine. The Holy trinity happens to be one of those. If Jesus is not fully God than he is a imposter for only God can forgive sins that’s how serious the matter becomes if we entertain anything less. So the church has to draw the line somewhere or are we to be accepting of every wind of doctrine that walks threw the church door. We do esteem the words of the Apostle Paul very highly. Grace be to you and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed . Galatians 1:3-8. As to all heritics being condemned and sent to hell. Well not so for heritic Saul was once one. That is of course until he saw the light which brought him to the full realisation of just who Jesus Christ really is. Than he became the apostle Paul❤️

 

[His student]

His Student I guess some Christians may be some quicker with their condemnation of heresy than others. At the same time the Church has a responsibility to protect and defend crucial doctrine. The Holy trinity happens to be one of those. If Jesus is not fully God than he is a imposter for only God can forgive sins that’s how serious the matter becomes if we entertain anything less. So the church has to draw the line somewhere or are we to be accepting of every wind of doctrine that walks threw the church door. We do esteem the words of the Apostle Paul very highly. Grace be to you and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed . Galatians 1:3-8. As to all heritics being condemned and sent to hell. Well not so for heritic Saul was once one. That is of course until he saw the light which brought him to the full realisation of just who Jesus Christ really is. Than he became the apostle Paul❤️

Kate -

I agree totally.

I sense in your post an attitude that is lacking in some other people here who are defending the Trinity. (I identify as Trinitarian by the way.)

I do have one caveat wherein I believe you make a crucial mistake in your post.

You say the following,

...the Church has a responsibility to protect and defend crucial doctrine.

I completely agree.

The Holy trinity happens to be one of those.

I disagree.

If Jesus is not fully God than he is a imposter for only God can forgive sins that’s how serious the matter becomes if we entertain anything less.

I fully agree.

You seem to be saying in your post that anyone who questions the Trinity doctrine as presented in the Nicene Creed etc. is rejecting the divinity of Jesus. That simply isn't necessarily true.

While some who question the Trinity do that very thing and some even postulate a multi God existence for the divine - Arienism and Mormonism for instance - not all who question the Trinity doctrine deny the divinity of Jesus.

Some - in fact - actually assign to Him more divinity than do Trinitarians (as it were) - "all of the divine" as opposed to Trinitarians who assign to Him 1/3 of the divine (as it were). Trinitarians postulate that Jesus was only an alleged "God the Son" person as well as fully man. Many non-Trintarians quite properly stress the fact that the scriptures teach that in Jesus "all the fullness of divinity dwells in human form".

Some stress the fact that the scriptures teach that, when God was incarnate in Jesus, God said "You shall be a Son to Me and I shall be a Father to You" and "thou art my Son today I have begotten you". Whereas Trinitarians teach (as in the Nicene Creed) that the Son is "etenally begotten of the Father".

Many who reject or question the Trinity doctrine see the Father/Son relationship as only applicable after the incarnation and not eternally. That's not the same as rejecting or questioning the full divinity or even the full humanity of Jesus.

What we see in the scriptures, according to them, is an incarnate God Who has "emptied Himself" of divine prerogatives and is functioning as a typical human being and has learned of His divinity from the scriptures as taught Him by the Holy Spirit Whom He had without measure - communicating with His Heavenly Father much as we do. Albeit - Jesus was "fully God" whereas we are not and never will be fully God.

Many non Trinity types are merely affirming the much repeated by God fact that God is ONE God. Whereas they feel that Trinitarianism has virtually "redefined" the concept of monotheism so well established by God in the O.T. - the most glaring reason that traditional Christianity is so strongly resisted by both Jews and Muslims ("the people of the Book").

Time would fail us if I listed all of the scriptures where the titles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are used in an interchangeable way.

I understand that Trinitarians have ways to explain that - but then so do many non-Trinitarians.

This is not to teach or insinuate here that theirs is necessarily the correct view of things or that the Trinity view is necessarily wrong.

I have quickly identified myself with a Trinitarian view as per the Nicene Creed. I say this lest anyone accuse me falsely of violating forum rules and propogating a non-Trinitarian view.

This post is only meant to warn some that one must be very careful not to create straw men and tilt at windmills when discussing the beliefs of others and their reasons for believing as they do.

That is a particularly appropriate warning when speaking to those here and elsewhere who quickly condemn to Hell all those who reject their exact way of seeing things in the scriptures.

I often see this kind of misrepresentation of the beliefs of others in the so called Calvinism debate as well as here.

 

[BCsenior]

... saying that Jesus is not God is a huge problem. Indeed it is heresy.

IMO, everyone on this sub-forum believes in the Triune Godhead, the Trinity.
Including me!
But, that doesn't mean they understand someone's simple and concise words
which were written in the English language. I shall not elaborate.

 

[BCsenior]

If Jesus is not fully God than he is a imposter for only God can forgive sins ...

Poor Kate ... I have another deep issue for you to contemplate!
Art thou ready for this?

From Scripture, I see what Father God insisted on ...
A sinless human being must die for the sins of the world!
(specifically for those who would go along with His Plan of Salvation).

Am I being clear?
The #1 criteria for Father God was that the human had to be sinless!

Now, could you prove to me via Scripture that this sinless human being had to be God?

 

[BCsenior]

Although the Son is equal to the Father in an ontological sense,
the Son and the Spirit are voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

Yes, but this fact is lost on most everyone here.

Generally speaking ...
we are to consider that all Three are equal Members of the Triune Godhead.

But, there are possible clues to the contrary, such as when
Jesus said His Father was greater than He was.

When people insist that Jesus was equal to Father God,
are they forgetting that the entity to be called "Jesus" was a man?

Just so everyone doesn't have a heart attack ...
If Jesus really was FULLY GOD, He was equal to Father God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

IMO, everyone on this sub-forum believes in the Triune Godhead, the Trinity.
Including me!
But, that doesn't mean they understand someone's simple and concise words
which were written in the English language. I shall not elaborate.

Well, they were quoted as saying they do not believe Jesus is God in one of their sentences. That to me is wrong and it is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus is God.

 

[BCsenior]

Well, they were quoted as saying they do not believe Jesus is God in one of their sentences.

But, we're interested in understanding and quoting accurately, aren't we?
I suggest that people go back and re-read what was actually written.

 

[Kate30]

Kate -

I agree totally.

I sense in your post an attitude that is lacking in some other people here who are defending the Trinity. (I identify as Trinitarian by the way.)

I do have one caveat wherein I believe you make a crucial mistake in your post.

You say the following,

I completely agree.
I disagree.
I fully agree.

You seem to be saying in your post that anyone who questions the Trinity doctrine as presented in the Nicene Creed etc. is rejecting the divinity of Jesus. That simply isn't necessarily true.

While some who question the Trinity do that very thing and some even postulate a multi God existence for the divine - Arienism and Mormonism for instance - not all who question the Trinity doctrine deny the divinity of Jesus.

Some - in fact - actually assign to Him more divinity than do Trinitarians (as it were) - "all of the divine" as opposed to Trinitarians who assign to Him 1/3 of the divine (as it were). Trinitarians postulate that Jesus was only an alleged "God the Son" person as well as fully man. Many non-Trintarians quite properly stress the fact that the scriptures teach that in Jesus "all the fullness of divinity dwells in human form".

Some stress the fact that the scriptures teach that, when God was incarnate in Jesus, God said "You shall be a Son to Me and I shall be a Father to You" and "thou art my Son today I have begotten you". Whereas Trinitarians teach (as in the Nicene Creed) that the Son is "etenally begotten of the Father".

Many who reject or question the Trinity doctrine see the Father/Son relationship as only applicable after the incarnation and not eternally. That's not the same as rejecting or questioning the full divinity or even the full humanity of Jesus.

What we see in the scriptures, according to them, is an incarnate God Who has "emptied Himself" of divine prerogatives and is functioning as a typical human being and has learned of His divinity from the scriptures as taught Him by the Holy Spirit Whom He had without measure - communicating with His Heavenly Father much as we do. Albeit - Jesus was "fully God" whereas we are not and never will be fully God.

Many non Trinity types are merely affirming the much repeated by God fact that God is ONE God. Whereas they feel that Trinitarianism has virtually "redefined" the concept of monotheism so well established by God in the O.T. - the most glaring reason that traditional Christianity is so strongly resisted by both Jews and Muslims ("the people of the Book").

Time would fail us if I listed all of the scriptures where the titles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are used in an interchangeable way.

I understand that Trinitarians have ways to explain that - but then so do many non-Trinitarians.

This is not to teach or insinuate here that theirs is necessarily the correct view of things or that the Trinity view is necessarily wrong.

I have quickly identified myself with a Trinitarian view as per the Nicene Creed. I say this lest anyone accuse me falsely of violating forum rules and propogating a non-Trinitarian view.

This post is only meant to warn some that one must be very careful not to create straw men and tilt at windmills when discussing the beliefs of others and their reasons for believing as they do.

That is a particularly appropriate warning when speaking to those here and elsewhere who quickly condemn to Hell all those who reject their exact way of seeing things in the scriptures.

I often see this kind of misrepresentation of the beliefs of others in the so called Calvinism debate as well as here.

My student I shall have to read through your reply a few more times. It’s rather deep as most discussions on the trinity generally are. It’s very late here so the sleep time does come soon. Shall look into what you wrote in more detail and reply later today.. God bless Kate