Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[renniks]

Why would I believe in apostasy if I believe in eternal salvation?

Because it's in the Bible.

"Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many."

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Matthew 24:4-14
And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for allthese things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:14-17
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

 

[BNR32FAN]

We spoke about this yesterday,I said I wanted to cover some new ground today.

Ok you are determined to repeat this so I will. However, you need to deal with this point first. I already dealt with that and you haven't addressed this one time,so do the fair thing and tackle the scripture,than I will deal with this revelation post,again:



I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe. Is God lying when he says the gift is free,eternal or by faith?

The reason I reposted it was because your contradicting yourself. You said the churches lost their faith and must repent to be saved. Now your saying that once a person believes them they are saved and they do not have to continue to believe in order to keep their salvation. So did these churches who you claim lost their faith not believe to begin with? I also addressed your comment about them “losing their faith” because Jesus specifically says they have kept their faith. So your not only contradicting what you said yesterday but also contradicting the scriptures by saying these churches lost their faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We spoke about this yesterday,I said I wanted to cover some new ground today.

Ok you are determined to repeat this so I will. However, you need to deal with this point first. I already dealt with that and you haven't addressed this one time,so do the fair thing and tackle the scripture,than I will deal with this revelation post,again:



I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe. Is God lying when he says the gift is free,eternal or by faith?

Ok let’s continue reading the very next verse in Ephesians 2:8-10.

“For by grace you (who is you?) have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Who is Paul talking to?

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NASB

What are we created for?

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I think I’ve pointed this next part out to you twice already. Notice what Paul says to these faithful saints in chapters 4 & 5.

“He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:28-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice he begins chapter 5 with the word “Therefore” indicating that he is building onto what he said in the end of chapter 4.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

In other words do not grieve the Holy Spirit because you know that those who live a sinful way of life will receive God’s wrath and will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Now Romans 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The wages of sin is death not good works. No amount of good works can ever pay for a single sin. That is why grace is a free gift. We are justified (made right with God) by faith but that doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want and we can never be made wrong with God. Look at what Paul had just said in the very same chapter.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Oh and by the way about your belief of once you believe your saved no matter what. Here’s what Paul had to say about that.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now is Paul saying they are saved if they don’t continue to believe? Can a person who has been justified never be made unjustified?

Now I have addressed the scriptures you posted so will you please answer my question in post #456?

 

[Daniel C]

You do accept some of their traditions, though. Like the Trinity and the contents of the Bible. So you're a pick and choose Christian?Yeah, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. There is only one body of teaching in the Catholic Church, regardless of the views of her members.Huh? You say you have the same vision as the Catholic Church but you don't believe they are correct on the issue?If you believe what you stated, and Scripture is the word of God, Scripture tells us that the apostles appointed a successor to Judas after he killed himself. It is also clear that Paul, having never met Christ, was still appointed an apostle. Timothy and Titus were appointed by Paul to be the head of their local churches. We believe this act of successorship carries on to the present day. That the Holy Spirit appoints some men to be heads of His local Churches, united under the Pope, who has the same successorship from Peter. Jesus left us an authority, someone for us to consult when our brother sins against us and he won't listen. Jesus told us we should tell it to the Church.

I think we are going off topic of salvation a little but ill respond to a couple of points.

Judas was replaced because of suicide and the twelve tribes need to be ruled over,with one short a new one was elected. Titus and timothy were not successors but authority in their local area as you acknowledge so this is not ecumenical it's local. At the time the main goal for everyone was soul winning. Does the Catholic church do soul winning anymore?

How is a person saved? Your view as a Catholic?

 

[Daniel C]

Ok let’s continue reading the very next verse in Ephesians 2:8-10.

“For by grace you (who is you?) have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Who is Paul talking to?

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NASB

What are we created for?

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I think I’ve pointed this next part out to you twice already. Notice what Paul says to these faithful saints in chapters 4 & 5.

“He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:28-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice he begins chapter 5 with the word “Therefore” indicating that he is building onto what he said in the end of chapter 4.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

In other words do not grieve the Holy Spirit because you know that those who live a sinful way of life will receive God’s wrath and will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Now Romans 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The wages of sin is death not good works. No amount of good works can ever pay for a single sin. That is why grace is a free gift. We are justified (made right with God) by faith but that doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want and we can never be made wrong with God. Look at what Paul had just said in the very same chapter.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Oh and by the way about your belief of once you believe your saved no matter what. Here’s what Paul had to say about that.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now is Paul saying they are saved if they don’t continue to believe? Can a person who has been justified never be made unjustified?

Now I have addressed the scriptures you posted so will you please answer my question in post #456?

I don't think you addressed it at all. For starters I put a question at the bottom which is key. Read the scripture and consider my question and give me your answer. That is all I want.



I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe. Is God lying when he says the gift is free,eternal or by faith?

 

[Daniel C]

Because it's in the Bible.

"Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many."

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Matthew 24:4-14
And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for allthese things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:14-17
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

You are misinterpreting those scriptures. It never says the people who depart,fall away etc are saved to begin with.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are misinterpreting those scriptures. It never says the people who depart,fall away etc are saved to begin with.

oops...
If "saved" is for this re-defined to suit your obstacles to truth, then the truth won't be found, will it ?

 

[Daniel C]

oops...
If "saved" is for this re-defined to suit your obstacles to truth, then the truth won't be found, will it ?

How is a person saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think you addressed it at all. For starters I put a question at the bottom which is key. Read the scripture and consider my question and give me your answer. That is all I want.



I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe. Is God lying when he says the gift is free,eternal or by faith?

No God is not lying since our works can never earn our salvation. We are justified by faith which means before we have done any works we have been forgiven of our sins. Nobody deserves to be justified or can do anything to become justified hence it is the free gift of grace. So while God still has expectations of those whom He has given the gift of grace if we fail to meet His expectations then we will not receive eternal life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No God is not lying since our works can never earn our salvation. We are justified by faith which means before we have done any works we have been forgiven of our sins. Nobody deserves to be justified or can do anything to become justified hence it is the free gift of grace. So while God still has expectations of those whom He has given the gift of grace if we fail to meet His expectations then we will not receive eternal life.

Is the teacher originally of a false gospel like universal salvation lying when they claim the heresy is true ? (if they really 'think' it is true)

Yahuweh (God) is not a man that He could lie.... we know this....

But men? .... Mankind has not such a testimony.... and Jesus stated that there are many false teachers, not many true teachers.

 

[Daniel C]

No God is not lying since our works can never earn our salvation. We are justified by faith which means before we have done any works we have been forgiven of our sins. Nobody deserves to be justified or can do anything to become justified hence it is the free gift of grace. So while God still has expectations of those whom He has given the gift of grace if we fail to meet His expectations then we will not receive eternal life.

When God does give the gift of salvation will he take it back?


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

 

[BNR32FAN]

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is the teacher originally of a false gospel like universal salvation lying when they claim the heresy is true ? (if they really 'think' it is true)

Yahuweh (God) is not a man that He could lie.... we know this....

But men? .... Mankind has not such a testimony.... and Jesus stated that there are many false teachers, not many true teachers.

Sorry I replied to the wrong person but I erased it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When God does give the gift of salvation will he take it back?


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

No not when a person actually receives it. As I showed you before no one receives eternal life until after they die. Until then we have the hope of receiving eternal life. Remember all those scriptures I posted about this very topic a few days ago?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry I replied to the wrong person but I erased it.

No worries at all - I often don't remember who I replied to - as the rules say so often "address the topic, not the poster" , so that's what I do except when required to address the poster.

 

[renniks]

You are misinterpreting those scriptures. It never says the people who depart,fall away etc are saved to begin with.

So I can fall away from some thing I was never part of? I can lose faith I never had? Where is the logic in that? " If you continue in the faith.." cannot be misunderstood to mean you never had faith. " The love of many will grow cold" can not be misunderstood to mean they never loved God. That's just nonsense.

 

[Daniel C]

No not when a person actually receives it. As I showed you before no one receives eternal life until after they die. Until then we have the hope of receiving eternal life. Remember all those scriptures I posted about this very topic a few days ago?

Actually I don't remember them.

Paul writes stating our bodies transform on earth ready for heaven after the tribulation. Putting on a new incorruptible physical body ready for the kingdom of God.

Question: If we get salvation in the kingdom of God how come this transformation happens down here? Read carefully.

1 Corinthians 15:45-56
''50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.''


So God obviously knows who has received the eternal gift of life and who has not received it. We don't wait until after we die because the transformation happens down here.

 

[Daniel C]

So I can fall away from some thing I was never part of? I can lose faith I never had? Where is the logic in that? " If you continue in the faith.." cannot be misunderstood to mean you never had faith. " The love of many will grow cold" can not be misunderstood to mean they never loved God. That's just nonsense.

Renniks are you reading any of these passages in context? That passage is completely unrelated to salvation loss, this is Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation before Christs second coming.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

I'm a little hesitant to ask you this knowing your doctrine but tell me how Christians being persecuted in the tribulation is anything to do with saved Christians losing salvation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So I can fall away from some thing I was never part of? I can lose faith I never had? Where is the logic in that? " If you continue in the faith.." cannot be misunderstood to mean you never had faith. " The love of many will grow cold" can not be misunderstood to mean they never loved God. That's just nonsense.

The English language permits nonsense to continue easily -

Apparently Eastern people, er... Westerners I mean, think "having faith" is like a one time deal, once, on a particular day and time even... and after that nothing needs to be continued - anything is excused because of the
false idea of "faith one time" .....
instead of realizing the truth
that trusting the Shepherd
is a DAILY trust and relying on Him all the time,
necessary ongoing faith , alive , active, doing the Father's Word (instead of the devil's)...

A sheep out in the shepherd's care , in the midst of wolves,
STAYS actively within the shepherd's range,
trusting the shepherd and being at peace as long as the sheep can HEAR THE SHEPHERD.... (they don't have to see the shepherd to have this peace a sheep has, but they must HEAR HIS VOICE) .....

The whole idea of a faithful life requires daily fully trusting and relying on the Father,
not just once, nor even for ten years then no longer needed....

"Walking in the LIGHT" is a unique experience in the world, and few find it.
Those who choose to , strange as it may appear, still have free will to choose to leave the LIGHT (usually permits because they lose a loved one and blame God?) ....

and if they sin the sin that leads to death, if they trample underfoot the preciousness of the Savior Jesus,

there no longer remains any sacrifice, no atonement, no forgiveness for their sin - no: they die, apart from Christ .....

 

[renniks]

I'm a little hesitant to ask you this knowing your doctrine but tell me how Christians being persecuted in the tribulation is anything to do with saved Christians losing salvation?

I don't understand the question... Of course many will fall away because of tribulation, but the fact remains that they were saved and fell away.