"For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

[hedrick]

... "filthy rags?" The Hebrew means used menstrual cloths.

That is how repulsive 'human good' is to God. God seeks divine good from the believer. Not, human good. Many believers follow after human good AND DO NOT REALIZE IT.

This is bad exegesis. It's clear from the passage that Isaiah believed Israel had turned away from God. This passage was about a specific situation, and was also almost certainly hyperbole. It was not a general assertion about the repulsiveness of human good. Indeed the first part of 64:5 recognizes that there are people who do good, and God rejoices in it.

 

[hedrick]

Paul quotes a similar text (probably Ps 14 and 53). But note the context in which he quotes it. He is not claiming that no one does anything righteous, but rather that if judged under a kind of legalism that he rejects, no one would ever pass the test. But in Rom 2, e.g. 2:13ff, he shows that people can be righteous in God's sight. However it's based on the intent of the law, not the kind of false legalism to which he was opposed.

 

[inquiring mind]

That's fine... what do you think is at the heart of this?

The heart of this discussion is whether-or-not man has some personal responsibility (in the form of choice & actions), beyond God’s grace and election? I just think that (a) God chooses (end of story); or, (b) God chooses (and we confirm) is defining the argument too simplistically. When its stated like that, (a) makes us robots and (b) puts too much emphasis on ‘us,’ as if man controls everything.

I believe God controls everything with His sovereign plan, but that in some way it involves His elect making a choice. That choice is not just a confirmation that we have conceived; I feel He wants us to choose and its part of His plan, along with us attempting to do good according to His commandments (in His eyes). I don't think His grace is intended to make us robots, but rather empower us to make a choice according to His plan. If not, and like I've said numerous time... what's the point, and where is the judgment?

 

[GenemZ]

Did not Jesus send out the 12 and the 72 as unlearned? Yet with His authority and in obedience they saw folks released from all sorts of bondages.

Which proves one does not have to understand the Word of God to perform such acts. They were ignorant. Even Judas was amongst that number. Yet.. They scattered and ran when Jesus was apprehended. They did not even believe Jesus was to be resurrected, even though Jesus taught them he would. They knew nothing.

By their fruit we shall know them? How well they rightly divide the Word of God will be the true fruit.

For when Jesus spoke of knowing someone by their fruit? Jesus was in the process of warning against false teachers. He warned that false teachers will perform miracles and cast out demons, etc. So that's not fruit to be looked for.Performing such acts is not fruit. What they teach and what it produces in others is the fruit. The fruit is how these teacher's followers remain in ignorance, yet think they have more than those who walk faithfully in God's Word in Truth...

For Jesus warned...

Many can know enough knowledge, to know to call him "Lord." Yet not know him.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day,
‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in
Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will
declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice
lawlessness!’ Mat 7:21-23​

I have witnessed to hot shots who perform healings... speak in tongues... etc. But when it came to rightly handling the Word of God? Bad fruit. Emotional and unstable followers when challenged by what required rightly handling the Word of God. Stubborn and dogmatic does not equal stability.

God does not want believers IGNORANT of what the Word of God MEANS!

Bad fruit will always be the produce of such teachers. Confident ignorance is the bad fruit.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is
seeking such to worship Him." Jn 4:23​

Only the truth will make you free. Being healed without gaining sound understanding in knowledge leaves one ignorant of what the Father seeks.

‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in
Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will
declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who
practice lawlessness!’
​

Notice! And they did it all in Jesus name! "In the name of Jesus."

Just like we see today happening.

The Truth will make you free of their claim to the right for authority.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The heart of this discussion is whether-or-not man has some personal responsibility (in the form of choice & actions), beyond God’s grace and election? I just think that (a) God chooses (end of story); or, (b) God chooses (and we confirm) is defining the argument too simplistically. When its stated like that, (a) makes us robots and (b) puts too much emphasis on ‘us,’ as if man controls everything.

I believe God controls everything with His sovereign plan, but that in some way it involves His elect making a choice. That choice is not just a confirmation that we have conceived; I feel He wants us to choose and its part of His plan, along with us attempting to do good according to His commandments (in His eyes). I don't think His grace is intended to make us robots, but rather empower us to make a choice according to His plan. If not, and like I've said numerous time... what's the point, and where is the judgment?

Yes of course man makes choices but within the bounds that God has set. The way you have described it is pretty much identical to my conclusion as well.

 

[usexpat97]

Yes of course man makes choices but within the bounds that God has set. The way you have described it is pretty much identical to my conclusion as well.

I actually prayed that God reduce my bounds recently. In a recent quiet time, God said to me, "You are going to sin in this way soon...". So I soon prayed, "Then don't allow it. I know I have a sinful nature, but I don't want to sin."

God's choices were either to step in and limit my freedom, or step in and forgive me later. Either way, God steps in. I would rather God take away my freedom now, than to have to ask for forgiveness later. I feel like God did answer my prayer, to remove my freedom; but He made me do something before He would answer it. God has a way of doing that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which proves one does not have to understand the Word of God to perform such acts. They were ignorant. Even Judas was amongst that number. Yet.. They scattered and ran when Jesus was apprehended. They did not even believe Jesus was to be resurrected, even though Jesus taught them he would. They knew nothing.

By their fruit we shall know them? How well they rightly divide the Word of God will be the true fruit.

For when Jesus spoke of knowing someone by their fruit? Jesus was in the process of warning against false teachers. He warned that false teachers will perform miracles and cast out demons, etc. So that's not fruit to be looked for.Performing such acts is not fruit. What they teach and what it produces in others is the fruit. The fruit is how these teacher's followers remain in ignorance, yet think they have more than those who walk faithfully in God's Word in Truth...

For Jesus warned...

Many can know enough knowledge, to know to call him "Lord." Yet not know him.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day,
‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in
Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will
declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice
lawlessness!’ Mat 7:21-23​

I have witnessed to hot shots who perform healings... speak in tongues... etc. But when it came to rightly handling the Word of God? Bad fruit. Emotional and unstable followers when challenged by what required rightly handling the Word of God. Stubborn and dogmatic does not equal stability.

God does not want believers IGNORANT of what the Word of God MEANS!

Bad fruit will always be the produce of such teachers. Confident ignorance is the bad fruit.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is
seeking such to worship Him." Jn 4:23​

Only the truth will make you free. Being healed without gaining sound understanding in knowledge leaves one ignorant of what the Father seeks.

‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in
Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will
declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who
practice lawlessness!’
​

Notice! And they did it all in Jesus name! "In the name of Jesus."

Just like we see today happening.

The Truth will make you free of their claim to the right for authority.

So your theology compels you to judge anyone who in this age dares to claim that the Holy Spirit within is not silent, and that Jesus wants us to fulfil the great commission with signs following.

This is a sad state of affairs, That would have to mean that the authority of the church and bible college I attended is also false. This is a big call. What authority do you then accept? Can you name a church that operates in your truth?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I actually prayed that God reduce my bounds recently. In a recent quiet time, God said to me, "You are going to sin in this way soon...". So I soon prayed, "Then don't allow it. I know I have a sinful nature, but I don't want to sin."

God's choices were either to step in and limit my freedom, or step in and forgive me later. Either way, God steps in. I would rather God take away my freedom now, than to have to ask for forgiveness later. I feel like God did answer my prayer, to remove my freedom; but He made me do something before He would answer it. God has a way of doing that.

Interesting response, I generally pray for God to give me agony of heart if I stray from His best.

 

[usexpat97]

Interesting response, I generally pray for God to give me agony of heart if I stray from His best.

If given the choice to either be forgiven, or just not sin in the first place, then I have to choose to just not sin. I mean, if the sin has not already occurred, and it's not too late....

 

[GenemZ]

So your theology compels you to judge anyone who in this age dares to claim that the Holy Spirit within is not silent, and that Jesus wants us to fulfil the great commission with signs following.

Not at all... If you could only comprehend what I said you would not make such a misleading statement.

 

[98cwitr]

Is this not the Day of Judgement, when Jesus comes in his glory? Haven’t men already determined their sheep or goat status, by their choices and actions in life?

Go a bit further than that. Have goats not always been goats, even before they were created? Isn't the same sentiment true of the sheep? Otherwise, you suggest a goat chose to be a goat, and a sheep chose to be a sheep. Does God have the Power to turn a goat into a Sheep if He so willed it?

 

[Carl Emerson]

If given the choice to either be forgiven, or just not sin in the first place, then I have to choose to just not sin. I mean, if the sin has not already occurred, and it's not too late....

It is interesting that the Greek for resist satan and he will flee from you is literally to make arrangements against.

This is something done in advance.

Dealing with the temptation before it becomes sin.

Ask Him what arrangements you need to make to see the victory you seek.

And ask for a hatred of the sin and an early warning so that it can be dealt with as an intruder before it enters in.

 

[Carl Emerson]

By their fruit we shall know them? How well they rightly divide the Word of God will be the true fruit.

Where does scripture say that?

Not all are called to be teachers.

Some are called to go out and do the works that He did in simple obedience.

 

[GenemZ]

Where does scripture say that?

Not all are called to be teachers.

Some are called to go out and do the works that He did in simple obedience.

Jesus was talking about teachers... In the context it says...

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.
Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise,
every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.' Mat 7:15-17​

The gift of prophesy was temporary and discontinued. Today we only have teachers... who may (falsely) claim to be prophets.

Peter knew and understood Paul's teaching about the temporary gifts. Its ref;ected in his wording in the following passage.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will
be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive
heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pet 2:1​

Note: Peter does not say there will also be false prophets amongst his congregations after he is gone. Peter changed the wording to say there will now be false teachers. For, the temporary gift of prophesy had ended by the time Peter wrote his second epistle!

Prophets were also teachers when the gift was till active. For the next verse states the function of prophet Peter was pointing to!

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth
into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with
fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."2 Pet 2:2​

Greed does not have to be about money. Some have approbation lust and their greed will lust for the approval and attention of others by telling wayward believers what they long to hear!

The false prophets/teacher's fruit will also be seen in their disciples wrong thinking. Thinking of those who blindly and wholeheartedly agree with the false teaching. For that willing to be his fruit the unction of the Holy Spirit will tell us something is very stupid and wrong... and have the Spirit led believers eventually move on to escape the spell of the false one teaching.

So be it. Warfare is not fair. But, God is fair. He warns us in His Word.


grace and peace...

 

[inquiring mind]

Go a bit further than that. Have goats not always been goats, even before they were created? Isn't the same sentiment true of the sheep? Otherwise, you suggest a goat chose to be a goat, and a sheep chose to be a sheep. Does God have the Power to turn a goat into a Sheep if He so willed it?

The nature of this conversation, well not just this conversation, but about any one on the topic, is such that it keeps driving the selection toward ‘man has a choice’ or ‘man has no choice.’ God has the power to do anything, and I know nothing of His sovereign plan, except the path to salvation He has laid out for us. But, I believe God brings man into the world empowered with the ability to choose on many levels, and choose he must. That ranges from doing good to The Holy Spirit bringing us the most important choice of our lives, and we will be judged on the choices we make. When you look at the scripture concerning the goats and sheep, you will see they are separated according to what they chose to do, or not do in life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus was talking about teachers... In the context it says...

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.
Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise,
every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.' Mat 7:15-17​

The gift of prophesy was temporary and discontinued. Today we only have teachers... who may (falsely) claim to be prophets.

Peter knew and understood Paul's teaching about the temporary gifts. Its ref;ected in his wording in the following passage.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will
be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive
heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pet 2:1​

Note: Peter does not say there will also be false prophets amongst his congregations after he is gone. Peter changed the wording to say there will now be false teachers. For, the temporary gift of prophesy had ended by the time Peter wrote his second epistle!

Prophets were also teachers when the gift was till active. For the next verse states the function of prophet Peter was pointing to!

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth
into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with
fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."2 Pet 2:2​

Greed does not have to be about money. Some have approbation lust and their greed will lust for the approval and attention of others by telling wayward believers what they long to hear!

The false prophets/teacher's fruit will also be seen in their disciples wrong thinking. Thinking of those who blindly and wholeheartedly agree with the false teaching. For that willing to be his fruit the unction of the Holy Spirit will tell us something is very stupid and wrong... and have the Spirit led believers eventually move on to escape the spell of the false one teaching.

So be it. Warfare is not fair. But, God is fair. He warns us in His Word.


grace and peace...

We all know these verses well and understand the warnings.

However the way you construct your theology does not do a lot for me...

We have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I hope you have a great day.

 

[GenemZ]

We all know these verses well and understand the warnings.

Not very well......

Even those it speaks of know they are in the Bible. We all know.

 

[inquiring mind]

We cannot escape personal responsibility and the consequences of our ‘ability to choose,’ which God has given us, neither in this world nor the next. For our choices determine fruit in the former, and bring judgment in the latter. These seem to be fundamental concepts in the Bible.

 

[GenemZ]

Adam

We cannot escape personal responsibility and the consequences of our ‘ability to choose,’ which God has given us, neither in this world nor the next. For our choices determine fruit in the former, and bring judgment in the latter. These seem to be fundamental concepts in the Bible.

Adam blamed the woman the Lord had given him.

And, hyper-Calvinists blame God for all those who refuse to believe.

Of course... they say its so in the name of the sovereignty of God.

Yet, God in His sovereignty gave man volition. If God did not? We would not have been created in His image..

The key is? God must apply grace to all before they are abler to utilize their volition in regards to determining their mental attitude towards God. For without grace suppressing man's sin nature? No one could possibly believe. And, no one's flesh is more depraved than another. Its the soul where human volition does its work. Its the soul that needs God's power of grace to be able to think outside of the box. Outside the sin nature's oppressive tyranny of reacting to God with repulsion.

 

[98cwitr]

The nature of this conversation, well not just this conversation, but about any one on the topic, is such that it keeps driving the selection toward ‘man has a choice’ or ‘man has no choice.’ God has the power to do anything, and I know nothing of His sovereign plan, except the path to salvation He has laid out for us. But, I believe God brings man into the world empowered with the ability to choose on many levels, and choose he must. That ranges from doing good to The Holy Spirit bringing us the most important choice of our lives, and we will be judged on the choices we make. When you look at the scripture concerning the goats and sheep, you will see they are separated according to what they chose to do, or not do in life.

I'm not sure how to fundamentally reconcile this. It requires a certain level of doublethink to achieve. If God is both the Creator of people (still) AND is Omniscient, then by simply creating you with full foreknowledge of your salvation (or lack thereof) the ultimate issue of faith and Christianity has been eternally apparent to God, but withheld from man.