The time when I nearly fell to Buddhism.

[NeedyFollower]

A preference means it would please me more if the preference was fulfilled, compared to if it wasn't fulfilled. That suggests that the biblical God is subject to a higher law which governs his own behavior.

" For my thoughts are not your thoughts , neither are your ways my ways says the Lord . For as the heavens are higher than the earth , so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts . " Isaiah 55:8 -9 .
Do you expect young children who have no children to have the same perspective as a 60 year old who does ? Can we ask them , so , what is it like to have children ? Tell me about the time before you were born . Do those who love have different perspectives than those who do not ? Do those who love have a different set of laws which govern their behavior than the set of laws which govern someone without love ? I would think they do . Is an eternal perspective different than a temporal perspective ? Of course it is . Remember when the young came to Jesus and said " Lord , make my brother share our inheritance and the Lord's response was " Man , who made a divider or judge over you . Take heed and beware of covetousness for man's life consist not of his possessions . " Jesus' perspective was not temporary . His laws were eternal and went beyond this life . Even his temporal actions such as running the money changers out of the temple , saying .." My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL peoples but you have made it a den of thieves " , had eternal and prophetic implications . Believers are a people of prayer . A house of prayer .

 

[ananda]

" For my thoughts are not your thoughts , neither are your ways my ways says the Lord . For as the heavens are higher than the earth , so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts . " Isaiah 55:8 -9 .
Do you expect young children who have no children to have the same perspective as a 60 year old who does ? Can we ask them , so , what is it like to have children ? Tell me about the time before you were born . Do those who love have different perspectives than those who do not ? Do those who love have a different set of laws which govern their behavior than the set of laws which govern someone without love ? I would think they do . Is an eternal perspective different than a temporal perspective ? Of course it is . Remember when the young came to Jesus and said " Lord , make my brother share our inheritance and the Lord's response was " Man , who made a divider or judge over you . Take heed and beware of covetousness for man's life consist not of his possessions . " Jesus' perspective was not temporary . His laws were eternal and went beyond this life . Even his temporal actions such as running the money changers out of the temple , saying .." My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL peoples but you have made it a den of thieves " , had eternal and prophetic implications . Believers are a people of prayer . A house of prayer .

It seems that you are suggesting that the nature of the biblical god is beyond all human understanding. This argument can be made for any other god for any other religion, in exactly the same way.

However, it seems that theists posit that there is a point where god meets humans - it is reasonable to conclude that this meeting point must include material that must be understandable by the human mind.

This meeting point must therefore include some form of communication (between two parties). The alleged communication from the biblical god is not at all impressive to me, nor definitive in proving its deity. This includes ideas about his need to create (an idea that was supposedly communicated, and thus should be understood by the human mind), yet the conclusions that come from this idea are dissatisfying, IMO.

 

[NeedyFollower]

It seems that you are suggesting that the nature of the biblical god is beyond all human understanding. This argument can be made for any other god for any other religion, in exactly the same way.

However, it seems that theists posit that there is a point where god meets humans - it is reasonable to conclude that this meeting point must include material that must be understandable by the human mind.

This meeting point must therefore include some form of communication (between two parties). The alleged communication from the biblical god is not at all impressive to me, nor definitive in proving its deity. This includes ideas about his need to create (an idea that was supposedly communicated, and thus should be understood by the human mind), yet the conclusions that come from this idea are dissatisfying, IMO.

It seems that you are suggesting that the nature of the biblical god is beyond all human understanding. This argument can be made for any other god for any other religion, in exactly the same way.

Quite frankly , I don't if that is true or not . It may be that I can not know God unless I am known by Him first . Which agrees with , Herein is love , not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave His son to be the propitiation for our sins . The scripture I quoted actually suggest a higher form of love that is demonstrated to humans through Christ Jesus . Whereas we would give our lives for our friends , God loved me when I was His enemy . That is a "Way" that is higher than man's ways . That is a thought higher than our thoughts . And it happened in the fullness of time ...at the right time .

However, it seems that theists posit that there is a point where god meets humans - it is reasonable to conclude that this meeting point must include material that must be understandable by the human mind.

Yes . The scriptures were written to give us understanding . It is useful for doctrine , reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect thoroughly furnished unto all good works .
In the first century , prophesiy ( also known as preaching ) was conducted by many followers in a gathering . See 1st Corinthians chapter 14 . For all were expected to contribute . There was an elder who kept order but there was not "a" preacher per se . Check out 1st Corinthians 14 for yourself .

This meeting point must therefore include some form of communication (between two parties). The alleged communication from the biblical god is not at all impressive to me, nor definitive in proving its deity. This includes ideas about his need to create (an idea that was supposedly communicated, and thus should be understood by the human mind), yet the conclusions that come from this idea are dissatisfying, IMO.

Please pardon me but if God is God , who are you that needs to be impressed ? God gave His Son who suffered by bearing all of our transgressions ( not to mention that physical agony ) Hated and misunderstood by most every human for he was different than everyone who had existed so far .
The Truth does need for me to be impressed for it to be the truth . It does not need my assent nor consent . And Moses asked ..who shall I say sent me ? ...Tell them " I Am " sent you . God is . I am so thankful . For man is too proud to understand just how lost and how far gone we are . This is true.
What kind of Christianity were you discipled into ?

 

[ananda]

Quite frankly , I don't if that is true or not . It may be that I can not know God unless I am known by Him first . Which agrees with , Herein is love , not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave His son to be the propitiation for our sins . The scripture I quoted actually suggest a higher form of love that is demonstrated to humans through Christ Jesus . Whereas we would give our lives for our friends , God loved me when I was His enemy . That is a "Way" that is higher than man's ways . That is a thought higher than our thoughts . And it happened in the fullness of time ...at the right time .

"God loved me when I was His enemy" - does that love for his enemies include Satan, demons, and is it reflected in the prospect of hell and the lake of fire?

Yes . The scriptures were written to give us understanding . It is useful for doctrine , reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect thoroughly furnished unto all good works .
In the first century , prophesiy ( also known as preaching ) was conducted by many followers in a gathering . See 1st Corinthians chapter 14 . For all were expected to contribute . There was an elder who kept order but there was not "a" preacher per se . Check out 1st Corinthians 14 for yourself .

Please pardon me but if God is God , who are you that needs to be impressed ? God gave His Son who suffered by bearing all of our transgressions ( not to mention that physical agony ) Hated and misunderstood by most every human for he was different than everyone who had existed so far .
The Truth does need for me to be impressed for it to be the truth . It does not need my assent nor consent . And Moses asked ..who shall I say sent me ? ...Tell them " I Am " sent you . God is . I am so thankful . For man is too proud to understand just how lost and how far gone we are . This is true.
What kind of Christianity were you discipled into ?

I need to be impressed because there are countless other gods, religions, teachers, and philosophies that also vie for equal attention. With so many choices, is it unreasonable to ask that the highest should stand so far, far above the rest, that it could do nothing but grandly impress?

 

[NeedyFollower]

"God loved me when I was His enemy" - does that love for his enemies include Satan, demons, and is it reflected in the prospect of hell and the lake of fire?

I need to be impressed because there are countless other gods, religions, teachers, and philosophies that also vie for equal attention. With so many choices, is it unreasonable to ask that the highest should stand so far, far above the rest, that it could do nothing but grandly impress?

"God loved me when I was His enemy" - does that love for his enemies include Satan, demons, and is it reflected in the prospect of hell and the lake of fire?

I guess different beings respond to opportunities of mercy and forgiveness in different ways . I do not know . I can only testify to the gratitude I feel for I was a very wicked man (although I would have claimed to be a christian ...I had my own set of rules as it were . ) I was thinking just today how delusion and lack of vision are synonyms . I did not see so therefore I could not .

It seems to me anyway , that eternal life is a place prepared for those who appreciate the things contained in the law of love . Meekness , humility , patience , long suffering , lowliness of mind , etc. They are referred to as the fruits of the spirit . As I understand it ( if I do ) I do not believe the enemy of humility and his angels would have any desire for a place like that . As for hell and the lake of fire , maybe satan will repent in the end ...who knows . There is also a place called outer darkness . Maybe this is a place for those to whom everyone else is "in their way " Or maybe hell is a singular place for those with a burning hate and all of the liberty to they want . These are questions I can not answer nor can anyone else .
Maybe God is not going to subject His servants to being exposed to rebellion in heaven and earth again and maybe that is the only things satan and his angels are capable of ...I don't know.

I need to be impressed because there are countless other gods, religions, teachers, and philosophies that also vie for equal attention. With so many choices, is it unreasonable to ask that the highest should stand so far, far above the rest, that it could do nothing but grandly impress?

No , I think the highest should stand far above the rest . That is why the scripture says " And let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus , who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God . But made himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man , he humbled himself , and became obedient unto death , even the death of the cross .

The visible image of God who did everything he saw the Father do . If he had only been a man and done this is admirable . But to be the creator of all things and humble himself so . It is just different brother ...so very different . So joyfully and sadly different . For the joy set before Him , he endured the cross . He could have come down but you and I would have no hope ...or a hope in man ...but God's Word gives me hope. Not hope in myself . But hope in Him .

 

[ananda]

I guess different beings respond to opportunities of mercy and forgiveness in different ways . I do not know . I can only testify to the gratitude I feel for I was a very wicked man (although I would have claimed to be a christian ...I had my own set of rules as it were . ) I was thinking just today how delusion and lack of vision are synonyms . I did not see so therefore I could not .

It seems to me anyway , that eternal life is a place prepared for those who appreciate the things contained in the law of love . Meekness , humility , patience , long suffering , lowliness of mind , etc. They are referred to as the fruits of the spirit . As I understand it ( if I do ) I do not believe the enemy of humility and his angels would have any desire for a place like that . As for hell and the lake of fire , maybe satan will repent in the end ...who knows . There is also a place called outer darkness . Maybe this is a place for those to whom everyone else is "in their way " Or maybe hell is a singular place for those with a burning hate and all of the liberty to they want . These are questions I can not answer nor can anyone else .
Maybe God is not going to subject His servants to being exposed to rebellion in heaven and earth again and maybe that is the only things satan and his angels are capable of ...I don't know.

No , I think the highest should stand far above the rest . That is why the scripture says " And let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus , who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God . But made himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man , he humbled himself , and became obedient unto death , even the death of the cross .

The visible image of God who did everything he saw the Father do . If he had only been a man and done this is admirable . But to be the creator of all things and humble himself so . It is just different brother ...so very different . So joyfully and sadly different . For the joy set before Him , he endured the cross . He could have come down but you and I would have no hope ...or a hope in man ...but God's Word gives me hope. Not hope in myself . But hope in Him .

Thanks for sharing. The biblical story is, IMO, not more profound than similar stories found in other religions.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Thanks for sharing. The biblical story is, IMO, not more profound than similar stories found in other religions.

You have heard it said that hind-sight is 20-20 . You may have also heard that history repeats itself ( Mark Twain made the quip that while history may not repeat itself , it certainly rhymes . )

It is difficult to understand to what you are referring when you say " The Bible Story is not more profound than similar stories found in other religions . " So what other religions have a part one followed by a part two which was foreshadowed and predicted in any number of ways by the first part . The Old Covenant being replaced by a better covenant .

So if you are an honest person , you will be intimately familiar with other religions which have the creation of a brand new tribe of people . ( The Hebrews ) who came out of an existing people ( The Chaldean ) You will have many examples of God's wisdom and timing in bringing a messiah through this people with the corresponding prediction that he will be despised and rejected by his own before being cut-off ( as it says in the book of Daniel .)
I am familiar with greek myths , Norse , Roman , Hindu , etc. And so I am suggesting that you are not thinking deeply about this but rather giving an unthoughtful and unsubstantiated answer. This is a pat answer that many atheist give ...even scholars but are not able to provide any thing even remotely close to the beauty of the WHOLE Bible . And I do not doubt for one second that you know what I am saying is true .
The reason I said that hind-sight is 20-20 is that the times in which we live has happened before . By knowing history and have enough vision , we should have a fairly accurate ability to know what happens next . It says that in the book of Daniel . " And none of the wicked will understand . " That also agrees with the last part of the 1st chapter of Romans ....it says "without understanding. "
Also ...on your tag line ..you say Converted from Christianity ...that is a Non Sequitur . It is like saying ..I was a lamb but now I am a wolf . How do you know you were a christian ? " They were not of us for if they had been of us , they would have remained . " I think you were probably an orthodox church goer raised up in religion . This is described in Isiah and Amos and Micah . Jesus referred to it as did the apostle Paul in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 ( Having a form of religion . )

So ....what other religion has all of these things ...A God centered understanding ...Proverbs , Wisdom , examples , prophets , and fulfilled prophecy so that men may KNOW . So YOU can know . Do not be unwise . Do not be lazy with pat answers . Do not cloud your mind with mind altering activities ( including entertainments . ) Be wise or do not pretend to be .

 

[ananda]

You have heard it said that hind-sight is 20-20 . You may have also heard that history repeats itself ( Mark Twain made the quip that while history may not repeat itself , it certainly rhymes . )

It is difficult to understand to what you are referring when you say " The Bible Story is not more profound than similar stories found in other religions . " So what other religions have a part one followed by a part two which was foreshadowed and predicted in any number of ways by the first part . The Old Covenant being replaced by a better covenant .

That has not been proven to me.

So if you are an honest person , you will be intimately familiar with other religions which have the creation of a brand new tribe of people . ( The Hebrews ) who came out of an existing people ( The Chaldean ) You will have many examples of God's wisdom and timing in bringing a messiah through this people with the corresponding prediction that he will be despised and rejected by his own before being cut-off ( as it says in the book of Daniel .)
I am familiar with greek myths , Norse , Roman , Hindu , etc. And so I am suggesting that you are not thinking deeply about this but rather giving an unthoughtful and unsubstantiated answer. This is a pat answer that many atheist give ...even scholars but are not able to provide any thing even remotely close to the beauty of the WHOLE Bible . And I do not doubt for one second that you know what I am saying is true .

I don't know that these things are true because I didn't witness them for myself. They are just hearsay claims.

The reason I said that hind-sight is 20-20 is that the times in which we live has happened before . By knowing history and have enough vision , we should have a fairly accurate ability to know what happens next . It says that in the book of Daniel . " And none of the wicked will understand . " That also agrees with the last part of the 1st chapter of Romans ....it says "without understanding. "

So ....what other religion has all of these things ...A God centered understanding ...Proverbs , Wisdom , examples , prophets , and fulfilled prophecy so that men may KNOW . So YOU can know . Do not be unwise . Do not be lazy with pat answers . Do not cloud your mind with mind altering activities ( including entertainments . ) Be wise or do not pretend to be .

There are many religions with prophetic statements. Pointing to prophecy as support for your preferred religion is not convincing to me, first: because I neither witnessed their origins, nor their alleged fulfillment; second: even if those prophecies are actually genuine & were actually and genuinely fulfilled, it still does not prove that their origin came from someone omniscient or omnipotent.

Also ...on your tag line ..you say Converted from Christianity ...that is a Non Sequitur . It is like saying ..I was a lamb but now I am a wolf . How do you know you were a christian ? " They were not of us for if they had been of us , they would have remained . " I think you were probably an orthodox church goer raised up in religion . This is described in Isiah and Amos and Micah . Jesus referred to it as did the apostle Paul in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 ( Having a form of religion . )

I was a Christian because I know I believed with my whole heart and mind. I also served for a number of years as a sunday school teacher as well as an apologetics teacher.

 

[NeedyFollower]

That has not been proven to me.

I don't know that these things are true because I didn't witness them for myself. They are just a hearsay claims.

There are many religions with prophetic statements. Pointing to prophecy as support for your preferred religion is not convincing to me, first: because I neither witnessed their origins, nor their alleged fulfillment; second: even if those prophecies are actually genuine & were actually and genuinely fulfilled, it still does not prove that their origin came from someone omniscient or omnipotent.

I was a Christian because I know I believed with my whole heart and mind. I also served for a number of years as a sunday school teacher as well as an apologetics teacher.

Yes , like me you believed certain stories and maybe your theology was sound . You know this whole building of church buildings ...the call to worship ...the sermon ...tithes and offerings , giving 10 % ...the hymn of invocation ..the responsive reading , church followed by sunday school ....you are aware these are all traditions of men ...you are aware of that right ? Nothing scriptural ...you followed a lesson plan , right ? I am aware of many apologist who are potential sound in their theology but lost in their application .
I am glad you are not a christian so now Jesus can find you and you can learn of Him by Him and through Him ...Not church .
If you were an apologist ...you know the chances of Christianity being a made up and you know good and well the prophecies were fulfilled and are being fulfilled even as we write . Come on ..I don't buy that and neither do you and neither does God ....and you know that He knows everything . So stop being like Adam and hiding from Him . How old are you ? Most men have refused to grow up and the ones that have are looking narrowly down the tube of career , future plans , school , human relationships , etc.
It is interesting that Paul wrote to BELIEVERS ...Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and Christ will give thee light . He calls believers DEAD ...as they were in Isiah's day and Amos .

By the way ..you know the 3rd chapter of Nahum speaks to our current situation ? And even if those prophecies are actually genuine and genuinely fulfilled it still does not PROVE " ...Man ...do you even hear your self ? Come on ...there are so many lost people ..Get up ! Be a man . Look around you . Look . Stop being so selfish . Get up . When was the last time you read Micah 3rd chapter ? Nahum ? Amos ? These were written for future generations .

 

[ananda]

Yes , like me you believed certain stories and maybe your theology was sound . You know this whole building of church buildings ...the call to worship ...the sermon ...tithes and offerings , giving 10 % ...the hymn of invocation ..the responsive reading , church followed by sunday school ....you are aware these are all traditions of men ...you are aware of that right ? Nothing scriptural ...you followed a lesson plan , right ? I am aware of many apologist who are potential sound in their theology but lost in their application .

If you were an apologist ...you know the chances of Christianity being a made up and you know good and well the prophecies were fulfilled and are being fulfilled even as we write . Come on ..I don't buy that and neither do you and neither does God ....and you know that He knows everything . So stop being like Adam and hiding from Him. How old are you ? Most men have refused to grow up and the ones that have are looking narrowly down the tube of career , future plans , school , human relationships , etc.
It is interesting that Paul wrote to BELIEVERS ...Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and Christ will give thee light . He calls believers DEAD ...as they were in Isiah's day and Amos .

By the way ..you know the 3rd chapter of Nahum speaks to our current situation ? And even if those prophecies are actually genuine and genuinely fulfilled it still does not PROVE " ...Man ...do you even hear your self ? Come on ...there are so many lost people ..Get up ! Be a man . Look around you . Look . Stop being so selfish . Get up . When was the last time you read Micah 3rd chapter ? Nahum ? Amos ? These were written for future generations .

I did previously believe that those prophecies were fulfilled, but then I raised my own standards. I see no compelling reason why an omnipotent, omniscient deity should speak through "special" intermediaries. Why not speak for himself, directly, to everyone? Hearsay is no longer sufficient, and I consider all those books and stories "hearsay".

I am glad you are not a christian so now Jesus can find you and you can learn of Him by Him and through Him ...Not church .

I welcome Jesus/God to reveal himself to me directly.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I did previously believe that those prophecies were fulfilled, but then I raised my own standards. I see no compelling reason why an omnipotent, omniscient deity should speak through "special" intermediaries. Why not speak for himself, directly, to everyone? Hearsay is no longer sufficient, and I consider all those books and stories "hearsay".


I welcome Jesus/God to reveal himself to me directly.

I did previously believe that those prophecies were fulfilled, but then I raised my own standards. I see no compelling reason why an omnipotent, omniscient deity should speak through "special" intermediaries. Why not speak for himself, directly, to everyone? Hearsay is no longer sufficient, and I consider all those books and stories "hearsay".

Yes . I can understand that you would be like the Bereans who were more honorable and searched the scriptures every day to see if the things the apostle were saying were in fact true . Now of course they had to search the old testament for there was of yet no new testament .
When you said " I believed those prophecies were fulfilled " ...you must be referring to the old testament scriptures which point to Jesus as the Messiah . This is what I believe to be one of the errors of the christian church . We become blind by only reading the scriptures which already verify what we already believe . These are not the prophecies to which I was referring although I do think it is wise that Jesus was hideously ugly ..maybe even deformed . How contrary to man's expectations . You knew that already and you know why that is important and where it is also hidden in the New Testament ? Why does God hide these things in plain sight ? Why is it not easier ? I do not know but have my opinions of course but they are speculation . I was referring to the prophecies which happened just before major disasters .
Everything is hearsay . Caesar . Is it hearsay that babes and children rule over the people ? That those who lead them cause them to err ? That is not hearsay . It is going on while we speak . Those who have wealth often do not grow up . Men are mere boys but just buy bigger toys . There is a lack of humility which is unprecedented due to increased education and people have mistakenly come to believe that smart is equal to wise . It is called delusion and leaves us totally unprepared for what must happen.

I welcome Jesus/God to reveal himself to me directly.

That would be a great mercy indeed and that is also my prayer . But it will come with a cost as does everything .

 

[ananda]

Yes . I can understand that you would be like the Bereans who were more honorable and searched the scriptures every day to see if the things the apostle were saying were in fact true . Now of course they had to search the old testament for there was of yet no new testament .
When you said " I believed those prophecies were fulfilled " ...you must be referring to the old testament scriptures which point to Jesus as the Messiah . This is what I believe to be one of the errors of the christian church . We become blind by only reading the scriptures which already verify what we already believe . These are not the prophecies to which I was referring although I do think it is wise that Jesus was hideously ugly ..maybe even deformed . How contrary to man's expectations . You knew that already and you know why that is important and where it is also hidden in the New Testament ? Why does God hide these things in plain sight ? Why is it not easier ? I do not know but have my opinions of course but they are speculation . I was referring to the prophecies which happened just before major disasters .
Everything is hearsay . Caesar . Is it hearsay that babes and children rule over the people ? That those who lead them cause them to err ? That is not hearsay . It is going on while we speak . Those who have wealth often do not grow up . Men are mere boys but just buy bigger toys . There is a lack of humility which is unprecedented due to increased education and people have mistakenly come to believe that smart is equal to wise . It is called delusion and leaves us totally unprepared for what must happen.

I do not see why such things should be hidden at all. Children have always ruled over the people - it is the childish who seek a position of power, never the wise.

That would be a great mercy indeed and that is also my prayer . But it will come with a cost as does everything .

Perhaps so.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I do not see why such things should be hidden at all. Children have always ruled over the people - it is the childish who seek a position of power, never the wise.

Perhaps so.

I do not see why such things should be hidden at all. Children have always ruled over the people - it is the childish who seek a position of power, never the wise.

Yes although it is difficult ..maybe impossible for a man to admit that he has been a child unless he be granted grace and truth birthed by love. At least that is my case . I did not see until I did and I credit that to the Lord Jesus who gives light to see . ( he came to open the eyes of the blind but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil . )
Also , there is a writing that says " There is a way that seems right unto man and that way leads to death . " There have been many instances throughout history where men have sought political power in order to "right the wrongs or bring freedom to an oppressed people " only to become their oppressors . The histories of the British and the US are filled with these misguided attempts at "civilizing " . Top down never works and is not supported by the writings of scriptures , Jesus' words , nor His example.

There is a fascinating book called " The True Flag " by Stephen Kinzer which traces the rise of modern imperialism in America in the 20th century to present . It does bring out the ability of media and journalism to indoctrinate us . I was noticing today how music and media can have the effect of keeping men childish and/or living their lives looking backwards and most notably ..living their lives dead ..not in reality ...la-la land as it were . Maybe wealth can be added to that . Tragedy and loss causes sobriety . Also it is ironic that religious books and sermons by well known authors and speakers typically are read and heard by those who already agree with them can subtly negate a work of repentance in the hearts of the hearers .

 

[ananda]

Yes although it is difficult ..maybe impossible for a man to admit that he has been a child unless he be granted grace and truth birthed by love. At least that is my case . I did not see until I did and I credit that to the Lord Jesus who gives light to see . ( he came to open the eyes of the blind but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil . )
Also , there is a writing that says " There is a way that seems right unto man and that way leads to death . " There have been many instances throughout history where men have sought political power in order to "right the wrongs or bring freedom to an oppressed people " only to become their oppressors . The histories of the British and the US are filled with these misguided attempts at "civilizing " . Top down never works and is not supported by the writings of scriptures , Jesus' words , nor His example.

There is a fascinating book called " The True Flag " by Stephen Kinzer which traces the rise of modern imperialism in America in the 20th century to present . It does bring out the ability of media and journalism to indoctrinate us . I was noticing today how music and media can have the effect of keeping men childish and/or living their lives looking backwards and most notably ..living their lives dead ..not in reality ...la-la land as it were . Maybe wealth can be added to that . Tragedy and loss causes sobriety . Also it is ironic that religious books and sermons by well known authors and speakers typically are read and heard by those who already agree with them can subtly negate a work of repentance in the hearts of the hearers .

I don't seek life or death (a physical, Christian view) - I seek the cessation of suffering & the permanance of bliss (a phenomeneological, Buddhist view).

 

[NeedyFollower]

I don't seek life or death (a physical, Christian view) - I seek the cessation of suffering & the permanance of bliss (a phenomeneological, Buddhist view).

There are many who walk through life already dead and that amount is increasing as the scriptures relate ...Jesus gave the examples of both the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah ....The day before both events , people were dead but they did not know it . They had no understanding . This is the purpose of the god of this world . To keep people dead for he hates life and truth not having any of it in him. I would not be a partner to death ..not in a secular sense nor a spiritual sense . ...the enemy says ..Go to sleep ..go to sleep ..sleep on ..sleep ...eat, drink and be merry. Life says " Awake , thou that sleeps ..arise from the dead and Christ will give thee light . " Not many awake .

 

[ananda]

There are many who walk through life already dead and that amount is increasing as the scriptures relate ...Jesus gave the examples of both the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah ....The day before both events , people were dead but they did not know it . They had no understanding . This is the purpose of the god of this world . To keep people dead for he hates life and truth not having any of it in him. I would not be a partner to death ..not in a secular sense nor a spiritual sense . ...the enemy says ..Go to sleep ..go to sleep ..sleep on ..sleep ...eat, drink and be merry. Life says " Awake , thou that sleeps ..arise from the dead and Christ will give thee light . " Not many awake .

Why do you seek "life"? To what ultimate end?

 

[NeedyFollower]

Why do you seek "life"? To what ultimate end?

As far as I am aware , life through Christ sought me first . This is not a metaphor nor a theological stance but an actual occurrence . I was not looking for Him . I was not even aware that I was dead . I do not know the ultimate end apart from hoping to personally see Christ Jesus . I owe Him so much and while I do thank Him in my prayers , I want to see Him face to face ..... So I do not seek life , I have life whereas before I walked around dead . There is a scripture which states , To whom much is given , much is required . Maybe we shall have an opportunity to continue to demonstrate even more mercy , more love and more grace than is possible with our earthly bodies . Who knows ? The beginning and the end is God and so to be with Him is both.

 

[ananda]

As far as I am aware , life through Christ sought me first . This is not a metaphor nor a theological stance but an actual occurrence . I was not looking for Him . I was not even aware that I was dead . I do not know the ultimate end apart from hoping to personally see Christ Jesus . I owe Him so much and while I do thank Him in my prayers , I want to see Him face to face ..... So I do not seek life , I have life whereas before I walked around dead . There is a scripture which states , To whom much is given , much is required . Maybe we shall have an opportunity to continue to demonstrate even more mercy , more love and more grace than is possible with our earthly bodies . Who knows ? The beginning and the end is God and so to be with Him is both.

Would you continue this path if God promised that an eternity of suffering comes along with it?

 

[NeedyFollower]

Would you continue this path if God promised that an eternity of suffering comes along with it?

But that is not what He promised for eternity but suffering is part of what a believer endures . Even Jesus endured the suffering of the cross for the joy that was set before Him . What was that joy ? The joy that the Father had when he saw the prodigal son returning from his misadventures ...the joy of reconciling the children to the Father . This also answers your earlier question as to what end . Reconciliation .
" Not only is it given to you to believe on Him , but also to suffer for His name's sake . " It is what being a part of His body means for He also suffers . Currently the whole creation is in confusion and in darkness much like the beginning prior to " Let there be light . " Much like the days of Noah . Much like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah . As it says in Isaiah 3:9 . The countenance of their faces does testify against them . They parade their sin like Sodom . They don't hide it . Woe unto their soul for they have done evil unto themselves . "

I was just reading 1st Kings 22 regarding Ahab and Jezebel . How that Israel had gotten lost by following the teachings of the amorites . How the Lord sent a lying spirit to those who desired a lie . Interesting that in the new testament it says .."and God shall send them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth . "

You know Humanism is just another form of Atheism for it exalts the creature and denies the creator . It is the refuge of the philosophers and those who are wise in their own eyes . "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit , through the traditions of men . " It leaves one un-reconciled to the Father . " And God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself . "

So I guess your next question is ..So why do I need to be reconciled ? To what end is reconciliation ? Others . Others . Others . Jesus said , I did not come of my own valition but the Father sent me . Why ? Others . others . For God gave ...others . You want to get beyond self ? Live for Christ . Be reconciled . Consider what I say . Wake up .

 

[ananda]

But that is not what He promised for eternity but suffering is part of what a believer endures . Even Jesus endured the suffering of the cross for the joy that was set before Him . What was that joy ? The joy that the Father had when he saw the prodigal son returning from his misadventures ...the joy of reconciling the children to the Father . This also answers your earlier question as to what end . Reconciliation .
" Not only is it given to you to believe on Him , but also to suffer for His name's sake . " It is what being a part of His body means for He also suffers . Currently the whole creation is in confusion and in darkness much like the beginning prior to " Let there be light . " Much like the days of Noah . Much like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah . As it says in Isaiah 3:9 . The countenance of their faces does testify against them . They parade their sin like Sodom . They don't hide it . Woe unto their soul for they have done evil unto themselves . "

I was just reading 1st Kings 22 regarding Ahab and Jezebel . How that Israel had gotten lost by following the teachings of the amorites . How the Lord sent a lying spirit to those who desired a lie . Interesting that in the new testament it says .."and God shall send them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth . "

The god of the Bible has a time limit to his patience?

You know Humanism is just another form of Atheism for it exalts the creature and denies the creator . It is the refuge of the philosophers and those who are wise in their own eyes . "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit , through the traditions of men . " It leaves one un-reconciled to the Father . " And God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself . "

So I guess your next question is ..So why do I need to be reconciled ? To what end is reconciliation ? Others . Others . Others . Jesus said , I did not come of my own valition but the Father sent me . Why ? Others . others . For God gave ...others . You want to get beyond self ? Live for Christ . Be reconciled . Consider what I say . Wake up .

What about others?