You claim that those who fall away were never believers to begin with. That in itself is a logical fallacy. As I pointed out to you that is like you claiming since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. Your illogical claim is that because some who fall away were never really believers, then all who fall away were never really believers. That is not logical, nor is it scriptural. Scripture makes it clear that there are those who apostatize from the faith. Explain how is it possible for an unbeliever to depart from the faith which he/she was never a part of to begin with? Your argument has been exposed as a weak one both logically and scripturally.
Those who permanently fall away from the faith demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start and that they were never genuine believers. We find an example in 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times
some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3
forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Of course, you would presume here that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of
professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They
went out from us, but they
were not of us; for
if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they
went out that they might be
made manifest, that
none of them were of us.
I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church
forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..
Can you show me just one verse in the Bible that "unequivocally" says that a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation?" I didn't think so. There are plenty of "nominal" Christians who are full of emotion and religion that have experienced moral self reformation, but not regeneration and end up falling away. (I've seen this myself!) In John 6:37, Jesus said -
All that the
Father gives Me will come to Me, and
the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. In John 10:27-28, Jesus also said His sheep hear His voice, He knows them and they follow Him, He gives them eternal life and they shall
never perish or be snatched from His hand. In verse 26, Jesus said - But you
do not believe you are not of My sheep. So it's your argument that has been exposed as a weak one both logically and scripturally. *Salvation is not probation/eternal life is not temporary life/Jesus is the door/ He is not a revolving door. So much for your logical fallacy.
In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the
guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
Yes, those who are born of God do not practice sin. If they do, they are of the devil (1 Jn 3:8). What do you suppose that means? Is someone who is of the devil still saved? I will believe John who states the opposite of what you believe.
Pure eisegesis on your part.
No one who is born of God practices sin.. (1 John 3:9) Not some of them do and some of them don't. The
one who practices sin is of the devil. (1 John 3:8) John is drawing a clear
CONTRAST between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:7-10. Put away your bias and accept the truth.
So if a genuine believer chooses to practice sin, evidencing an unrepentant lifestyle, is he/she still saved?
John did not say that those who are born of God/genuine believers choose to practice sin. He said
NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRACTICES SIN. Let go of your bias and accept what John clearly said! Also, stop implying that OSAS = license to sin.
Your fall back excuse is that he/she was never saved in the first place. So given your position, you being a genuine Christian (I assume) can never fall into sin and habitually sin/practice sin because then that would entail that you were never, ever a Christian to being with, correct?
The idea of "practice" sin is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life with no goal or effort to stop. Those who practice sin demonstrate that they have not been born of God/were never a Christian.
In the passage being discussed the context indicates you are eisegeting the text as I pointed out. Care to wrestle with the text based on my pointing that out to you?
That is exactly what you have done with 1 John 3:9.
The clause in v.1 refers to those "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." These are the ones for whom is promised "no condemnation." You have a choice don't you as to whether to walk in the flesh or Spirit? Yes or No? If you choose to walk in the flesh evidencing no repentance, are you still not condemned? Yes or No?
Eternal IN-securists are always trying to accuse those in the OSAS camp of teaching a license to sin/live like the devil, no repentance, but still saved. That is
not what I teach. If "do not walk according to the flesh" means to never sin, then everyone is guilty of walking according to the flesh and will not be saved, according to your logic. So where do you draw the line in the sand on walking according to the flesh and walking according to the Spirit? Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. You also need to stop ignoring Romans 8:8-11.
Nope as you and I know, no such thing a sinless perfection as we all sin per 1 Jn 1:8,10.
Amen! Yet whenever we do sin are we walking according to the flesh or according to the Spirit? Or do you only consider "practicing sin" to be walking according to the flesh?
However there is a marked difference between occasional sin which all believers still commit and the practice of sin which not all believers commit.
Amen! Hey, at least we agree on some things.
So only those who
practice sin walk according to the flesh according to you? Now go back and read 1 John 3:9.
Notice that 1 Jn 1:7 states that IF we are walking in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses our sin. The word "if" indicates a condition (walking in the light) that must be met in order for the cleansing blood of Jesus to be efficacious. "If" indicates possibility, maybe even probability, but never certainty. It is therefore possible that a genuine believer can choose to walk in darkness by practicing sin and not walking in the light. If that is the case then the cleansing blood of Jesus is not assured of since the believer lives an unrepentant lifestyle. Thus John and Paul are in perfect agreement as not walking in the light and not living according to the Spirit for the believer results in spiritual death.
Now you are back to contradicting 1 John 3:9. I already thoroughly explained 1 John 1:7 in post #84 and properly harmonized scripture with scripture.
Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?
Nope. Only believers have the CHOICE to walk according to the flesh OR according to the Spirit. You have ignored the little word "IF." Unbelievers have no such choice as being unregenerated they cannot help but walk according to the flesh. That being the case, Paul would have used the word "since" if he were addressing unbelievers since unbelievers can only choose to live according to the flesh. Moreover, Rom 8:13 is a first class condition sentence which for the sake of argument assumes that the protasis is true and consequently the apodosis is also true. I suggest you look it up and inform yourself accordingly.
I have not ignored the word "IF" which is confirmation that those who do not walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now
if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Paul is drawing a "contrast" between believers and unbelievers. IF confirms this. It's one or the other. I don't need to look up a biased commentary to convince me otherwise. Romans 8:14 - For
as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. *In contrast, those who are
not led by the Spirit of God are n
ot sons of God. Simple!
I thought that you brought up Colossians 1:23 to me in one of your posts. In Colossians 1:23, we read - ..if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. As Wuest explains "The word “if” here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance in the gospel as it was preached by Paul would show that the person was saved (Ed: Same thought in 1 Cor 15:2 = "by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.") That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians who
believe in vain/without cause or without effect, to no purpose? (1 Corinthians 15:2).
*It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians along with genuine Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, vain faith was not rooted and established in the gospel to begin with.
Quite the contrary. Any author of a book, letter, etc. can specify who his specific audience is. Paul specified that his audience is "little children" which can only mean true believers. The child of God who practices sin is of the devil. You are free to believe otherwise.
Just because a letter is addressed to "little children" does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letter is a child of God. 1 John 2:19 immediately comes to mind. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. If the Pastor of a church (especially a very large church) greeted the congregation on Sunday morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," does that mean that EVERYONE in the congregation on that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine brother or sister in Christ? Of course not.
Same applies to you.
Nope. I first showed you that "among" is not universally included in all translations which automatically weakens your argument. Then I proceeded to totally discredit your argument when pointing out to you that "among" in the preceding verses plainly refers to believers. You however claim that the meaning of "among" somehow changes from believers to unbelievers from v. 13-14 to v. 19-20. How exactly does that work? You play fast and loose with "among" in order to cling to your doctrine.
Nope. Everyone physically dies whether or not they wander from the truth. The verse therefore warns against death of the soul which is spiritual death from which a believer can be saved from if he/she turns back to the truth.
Funny...it takes one to know one.
You are sounding more and more like a lawyer.
Once again, I already throughly explained this in posts #26 and #81. The wanderer in James 5:19,20 is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (
Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (
1 Corinthians 11:29-32;
1 John 5:16).