How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

[Chris V++]

The development of supranormal powers are said to correspond with the degree of mental development & concentration. We can ask deities for assistance, but like any individual with individual proclivities, they can choose to intervene or not. More often than not, they don't, since the lower words (in relation to theirs), like the human world, are compared to a dense cesspool which they stay away from. (The same comparison is made between lower heavenly realms and higher heavenly realms, relatively speaking)

Thank you for having this discussion btw. I think there are a lot of misconceptions that Buddhism is a 'nothingness' philosophy that encourages meditation for focus and mental well being and mindfulness. I 'm not sure a lot of Americans area aware at least of the spiritual aspects.
Is there a known amount of deities? I m finding deities on the internet for various things, like war, or protection. Some Christians practice petitioning various Saints for intercession, and some Saints are said to specialize in things like travel, or finances, however Saints aren't considered deities.

 

[ananda]

Thank you for having this discussion btw. I think there are a lot of misconceptions that Buddhism is a 'nothingness' philosophy that encourages meditation for focus and mental well being and mindfulness.

I do see those ideas in Westernized ecumenical circles, from what I've seen, usually from those who often blend some aspects of Buddhism, Zen, Mahayana, Tibetan, Hinduism, yoga, paganism, and Christianity together.

I 'm not sure a lot of Americans area aware at least of the spiritual aspects.
Is there a known amount of deities? I m finding deities on the internet for various things, like war, or protection. Some Christians practice petitioning various Saints for intercession, and some Saints are said to specialize in things like travel, or finances, however Saints aren't considered deities.

There are no known limit to the number of deities, just as there are innumerable humans, animals, insects, etc. on Earth. All the deities are individuals too, with their own individual minds, needs, wants, aversions, etc. so there aren't really any specific Buddhist deities for specific things.

 

[roman2819]

Insulting other peoples religious traditions does nothing to engender your own.

Yes agreed. I lived in Singapore, the main religions Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism are here, plus many others. I have evangelised to people from differrnt faith. We can agree to disagree with mutual respect, but never insult them.

 

[roman2819]

All "religious traditions" lead to hell.
When anyone turns from scriptural truth which is light ,they turn to darkness.
It is not an insult but a fact..
God is not taking an opinion poll among those who have turned from God. Roman's 1 is how God views
Those with a reprobate mind.
In the time of Noah, God did not have to work up a sweat to destroy the world of the ungodly.
Their views, traditions and beliefs could not stand in the judgment. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.

Have you evangelize to people of other religions? Do you tell them that their beliefs lead to hell? If so, they pushed back and resent Christianity.

I lived in Singapore, the main religions Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism are here, plus others. I have evangelised to people from differrnt faith and they do listen to what Christianity is about if there is mutual respect. .Even if they do not believe immediately, however, we sow the seeds, and one day, it may bear fruits. I have personally seen them turning to God years later.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Have you evangelize to people of other religions? Do you tell them that their beliefs lead to hell? If so, they pushed back and resent Christianity.

I lived in Singapore, the main religions Christianity, Islam, Buddhism are here, plus others. I have evangelised to people from differrnt faith and they do listen to what Christianity is about if there is mutual respect. .Even if they do not believe immediately, however, we sow the seeds, and one day, it may bear fruits. I have personally seen them turning to God years later.

I establish the word of God and offer what it says.

 

[roman2819]

I was a Christian for 20+ years, and I served as a youth & adult teacher in various churches for a number of those years. I was also an apologetics teacher for some time. There were many reasons why I left Christianity; one was because I researched & practiced aspects of Buddhist philosophy and psychology to handle various issues, and I found that they worked very well for me. It eventually led me to a full scale acceptance of Buddhism.

Other reasons include: claiming Biblical promises that never manifested, being asked apologetics questions that I had no good answer for (even after much study), etc.

I have not thought about being a Christian again, except I do miss some of its social aspects.

Hi Ananda, I remember reading your post in another thread.

I used to read about Buddhism seriously when I was a youth. The eight-fold path or middle path of Buddhism - which is about right speech, right thoughts, right actions. right meditation etc - is good teaching indeed. However, when I later came to rebirth, I cannot bring myself to believe it, there is just too little proof. Virtually no one can say that they remember their former existence. You will know that rebirth - or trying to stop being reborn so that the wheel of karma will cease, thus leading to nirvana - is the cornerstone of Buddhism. Many people are Buddhists in Singapore (where I reside), I have friends who practise Buddhism, but none of them remember their past lives.

I have been a Christian for many years now. There is one question that matters when it comes to God, which is: Does He exist, is He real? Whether we feel happy or upset with Him (from time to time), the same question remains: Does He really exist? If He is not real, then as apostle Paul says, "we are the biggest fools.". But if God is real, then we believe and keep faith to the end, no matter how we feel.

Are there sufficient proofs of God's existence? Yes, the creation - - ecology system and the thousands (or possibly million) of land and marine creatures - is solid proof. Can they really have happen and evolve by themselves? Without a Creator God. I really cannot believe they could.

Is there credible proof that the Bible is true? Yes, the Bible spoke of many things that has happened. For example: the ancient Egyptian empire, Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Roman empire did exist. Archaeology proofs, even recent ones, have supported that the Scripture is credible. The book of Revelation - - written 2000 years ago at a time when soldiers fought with spears and arrows only - - prophesies of tanks and helicopters in modern warfare.

Did Jesus exist? He was recorded in Roman Antiquities, the Roman historian Josephus said He did miracles and many followed him. Is the resurrection real? If not, I don't think the apostles and disciples would have endured so much sufferings and even death.

Personal experience - Answers to prayers and deliverences from serious problems have helped me to keep faith. Of course, there are disappointments too, which bring me to the next point...

Finally about "claiming Biblical promises that never manifested," which is what I mean by "whether we feel happy or upset with Him from time to time": I have known Christians that left God because they are disappointed about prayers not answers, and He does not seem to help when they are in trouble. It is too much to answer in a text and for that, I have written a book "Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will" to try to address the questions and problems. I believe that a root problem is how we misinterpreted prayer verses. Understanding what the Bible really says about prayer can help us to perservere and keep faith.

 

[ananda]

Hi Ananda, I remember reading your post in another thread.

I used to read about Buddhism seriously when I was a youth. The eight-fold path or middle path of Buddhism - which is about right speech, right thoughts, right actions. right meditation etc - is good teaching indeed. However, when I later came to rebirth, I cannot bring myself to believe it, there is just too little proof. Virtually no one can say that they remember their former existence. You will know that rebirth - or trying to stop being reborn so that the wheel of karma will cease, thus leading to nirvana - is the cornerstone of Buddhism. Many people are Buddhists in Singapore (where I reside), I have friends who practise Buddhism, but none of them remember their past lives.

Greetings, roman2819, I will have to respectfully disagree.

Rebirth on one level is indeed directly observable - my adult-self has been reborn from my child-self, and my child-self has been reborn from my infant-self, etc.

Rebirth on the other levels - the consciousness & mental continuums - are said in the early Buddhist scriptures to require achievement of the fourth jhana in meditation (where the mind disassociates from the body) before one can directly observe rebirth happening across multiple physical lifetimes. The vast majority of individuals have not achieved the fourth jhana, much less the first, and so cannot observe these things.

I have been a Christian for many years now. There is one question that matters when it comes to God, which is: Does He exist, is He real? Whether we feel happy or upset with Him (from time to time), the same question remains: Does He really exist? If He is not real, then as apostle Paul says, "we are the biggest fools.". But if God is real, then we believe and keep faith to the end, no matter how we feel.

If God is real, then the question becomes: "What is its nature, and is it truly the highest goal in life?" Based on what I have observed about life, my answer is "no".

Are there sufficient proofs of God's existence? Yes, the creation - - ecology system and the thousands (or possibly million) of land and marine creatures - is solid proof. Can they really have happen and evolve by themselves? Without a Creator God. I really cannot believe they could.

How do attempts at answering the question about their existence address the more fundamental question about our purpose in life?

Is there credible proof that the Bible is true? Yes, the Bible spoke of many things that has happened. For example: the ancient Egyptian empire, Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Roman empire did exist. Archaeology proofs, even recent ones, have supported that the Scripture is credible. The book of Revelation - - written 2000 years ago at a time when soldiers fought with spears and arrows only - - prophesies of tanks and helicopters in modern warfare. Did Jesus exist? He was recorded in Roman Antiquities, the Roman historian Josephus said He did miracles and many followed him. Is the resurrection real? If not, I don't think the apostles and disciples would have endured so much sufferings and even death.

I haven't observed any of these things for myself, therefore I consider them hearsay and unprovable.

Personal experience - Answers to prayers and deliverences from serious problems have helped me to keep faith.

I believe I have had prayers answered in Buddhism as well.

Of course, there are disappointments too, which bring me to the next point... Finally about "claiming Biblical promises that never manifested," which is what I mean by "whether we feel happy or upset with Him from time to time": I have known Christians that left God because they are disappointed about prayers not answers, and He does not seem to help when they are in trouble. It is too much to answer in a text and for that, I have written a book "Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will" to try to address the questions and problems. I believe that a root problem is how we misinterpreted prayer verses. Understanding what the Bible really says about prayer can help us to perservere and keep faith.

If some of my prayers were answered by Buddhist devas, what does that say about prayer and the Christian god?

 

[Rajni]

However, when I later came to rebirth, I cannot bring myself to believe it, there is just too little proof. Virtually no one can say that they remember their former existence.

I can't remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday, but that
doesn't mean I didn't have lunch at all.

"Before you were born, I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5) Even the
bible seems to support the idea that there was a "you" in
existence, and able to be known, apart from any physical
incarnation that "you" might have. Of course many will deny
that this is what the verse is talking about, but the same can
be said for any verse in the bible, because all of them can be
interpreted and re-interpreted six ways to Sunday depending
on who one's favorite pastor or bible-commentator happens
to be.

The inability to remember past lives isn't necessarily an
indicator that they never happened. I don't remember
meeting God, either, but I wouldn't disbelieve in His
existence because of that.

The lack of past life memory recall helps to compartmentalize
things a bit. There's enough going on in one's current life
without having one's mind filled up with people and events
from heaven only knows how many other past lives.

There are cases where people do remember their past lives,
especially very young children who know details about a
previous life that they really shouldn't be able to know
otherwise.

-

 

[Chris V++]

"Before you were born, I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5)

I've been thinking a lot lately about time and the idea that God stands outside of time which is another take on Jeremiah 1:5. I've been wondering if we can pray for our younger selves, friends, family and affect the outcomes of our futures. Maybe my 16 year old self won't be such a punk after all, or maybe he wasn't as big of a punk since my 70 year old self is going to say prayers for him.

 

[Not David]

OSAS is the most annoying belief of Western Christianity. It does nothing to solve issues when Christians leave the faith and even it damages the struggle current Christians have with sin.

 

[Noxot]

Once saved always saved in the deepest depths of God's heart is true and so I can see why it is popular though it is certainly misunderstood.

It is used to condemn others saying "you were not a real Christian no matter how much your experience was true". It is used as a lazy excuse with the rest of the dead spirit to pretend it is alive and assured of life while rats gnaw at their bones.

 

[Chris V++]

OSAS is the most annoying belief of Western Christianity. It does nothing to solve issues when Christians leave the faith and even it damages the struggle current Christians have with sin.

Even back in the beginning there were some that 'turned aside after Satan' 1Tim 5:15
But the other side of that argument is that they were never really saved. Then the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy gets invoked, and the argument goes in circles until a mod locks the thread for goading or some such violation

 

[Not David]

Even back in the beginning there were some that 'turned aside after Satan' 1Tim 5:15
But the other side of that argument is that they were never really saved. Then the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy gets invoked, and the argument goes in circles until a mod locks the thread for goading or some such violation

You just describe most of the threads on General Theology.

 

[FireDragon76]

OSAS is the most annoying belief of Western Christianity. It does nothing to solve issues when Christians leave the faith and even it damages the struggle current Christians have with sin.

It's just intellectually dishonest.

 

[Chris V++]

It's just intellectually dishonest.

I can't go through life thinking I could be cut down by some technicality, failure to fulfill an obligation or perform a necessary ritual. People can drive themselves crazy over worry. That's the alternative to OSAS, since we know how wretched we can be, or we can stop believing in judgement altogether.

 

[Not David]

I can't go through life thinking I could be cut down by some technicality, failure to fulfill an obligation or perform a necessary ritual. People can drive themselves crazy over worry. That's the alternative to OSAS, since we know how wretched we can be, or we can stop believing in judgement altogether.

The problem is seeing God as someone who is trying to find a way to make you fall.

 

[FireDragon76]

I can't go through life thinking I could be cut down by some technicality, failure to fulfill an obligation or perform a necessary ritual. People can drive themselves crazy over worry. That's the alternative to OSAS, since we know how wretched we can be, or we can stop believing in judgement altogether.

That's why I don't go to church anymore- it finally dawned on me that I went to therapy for years to learn how to stop feeling shame and guilt, why would I want more of that 54 days a year, even if soft-pedalled by well-meaning people?

 

[Chris V++]

The problem is seeing God as someone who is trying to find a way to make you fall.

Great point. But OSAS thinking and seeing God like that aren't compatible. OSAS seems to preach security despite our shortcomings and that God is willing that none should be lost. The criticism then becomes people who hold to this think they have a license to sin, or can't sin, and the circular arguments persist until another mod locks the thread.

 

[Chris V++]

That's why I don't go to church anymore- it finally dawned on me that I went to therapy for years to learn how to stop feeling shame and guilt, why would I want more of that 54 days a year, even if soft-pedalled by well-meaning people?

Church is full of sinners. Guilt is our default. That's why I fly under the radar at church, so that I receive as little collateral guilt as possible.

 

[FireDragon76]

Church is full of sinners. Guilt is our default. That's why I fly under the radar at church, so that I receive as little collateral guilt as possible.

I don't agree with that perspective anymore.

If you are unhappy with your life, you should take reasonable steps to change things you don't like. If you can't change things in your life, acceptance is best.

Being told I am a bad person has never motivated me to make positive changes in my life, and I see no reason it does for other people, either.