How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

[cloudyday2]

Blind faith in the Buddhist heavens, hells, and afterlife are not a necessary component in the Buddha's Path. It is said that advanced practitioners will eventually observe these things for themselves anyways, so at that point, they will have no need for faith in them.

Nibbana is not a place that we must have faith in either - it is rather a state of cessation of suffering & composed of the highest bliss, so in that sense, it is conceivable and not subject to faith.

What if there is no Nibbana? Would you adjust your Buddhist practices if it is only psychological?

 

[ananda]

What if there is no Nibbana? Would you adjust your Buddhist practices if it is only psychological?

No, because everything boils down to the psychological, doesn't it? All activity is experienced in mind. What higher goal is there than the achievement of complete peace & bliss of mind aka nibbana?

 

[Chris V++]

Progressing along the Buddha's Path, I observe an ever increasing peace & sukha. Completing the Path should result in permanent peace & permanent sukha, and no more dukkha.

We have similar concepts: 'a peace that surpasses understanding' and what they call 'mountaintop moments' of 'joy unspeakable.'

 

[cloudyday2]

No, because everything boils down to the psychological, doesn't it? All activity is experienced in mind. What higher goal is there than the achievement of complete peace & bliss of mind aka nibbana?

I do not believe I am a brain in a vat, so how I feel is of only the tiniest significance in the big scheme. How I affect other creatures is also worth considering even though it is also of only the tiniest significance. Maybe I am supposed to be doing something in this world other than trying to feel good psychologically. Of course how I feel impacts how I affect other creatures, but focusing exclusively on how I feel might neglect the real purpose.

 

[ananda]

We have similar concepts: 'a peace that surpasses understanding' and what they call 'mountaintop moments' of 'joy unspeakable.'

Do you now possess that peace that surpasses understanding in your faith?

 

[Chris V++]

Maybe I am supposed to be doing something in this world other than trying to feel good psychologically. Of course how I feel impacts how I effect other creatures, but focusing exclusively on how I feel might neglect the real purpose.

I have to agree my own comfort and security shouldn' t be my objective.

 

[ananda]

I do not believe I am a brain in a vat, so how I feel is of only the tiniest significance in the big scheme. How I effect other creatures is also worth considering even though it is also of only the tiniest significance. Maybe I am supposed to be doing something in this world other than trying to feel good psychologically. Of course how I feel impacts how I effect other creatures, but focusing exclusively on how I feel might neglect the real purpose.

I don't believe I'm a brain in a vat either.

Understanding & behaving in terms of "how I affect other creatures" is part of my experience towards achieving peace & bliss (or at the very least, decreases my experience of dukkha). When I work on other things in this world, it is also because I believe such work adds to my experience of peace & bliss (or decreases my experience of dukkha).

Therefore, I conclude that all activity in this world is geared towards that final goal (nibbana).

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't believe I'm a brain in a vat either.

Understanding & behaving in terms of "how I affect other creatures" is part of my experience towards achieving peace & bliss (or at the very least, decreases my experience of dukkha). When I work on other things in this world, it is also because I believe such work adds to my experience of peace & bliss (or decreases my experience of dukkha).

Therefore, I conclude that all activity in this world is geared towards that final goal (nibbana).

What if the work you are supposed to be doing in some master plan for the universe requires you to suffer or merely does not increase your experience of peace and bliss. Then you will miss your purpose, because you have made peace and bliss your purpose.

And the final goal of all activity cannot be nibbana if nibbana is malarkey.

(Also I am fixing my misspelling that you noticed. I always mix up "effect" and "affect".)

 

[ananda]

What if the work you are supposed to be doing in some master plan for the universe requires you to suffer or merely does not increase your experience of peace and bliss. Then you will miss your purpose, because you have made peace and bliss your purpose.

It would be a project that increases my long-term prospects for peace & bliss, at the cost of short-term suffering.

And the final goal of all activity cannot be nibbana if nibbana is malarkey.

(Also I am fixing my misspelling that you noticed. I always mix up "effect" and "affect".)

Instead of the word "nibbana", call it eternal bliss & happiness if you will.

 

[Chris V++]

Do you now possess that peace that surpasses understanding in your faith?

Only until the neighbor's dog wakes me up at 2AM, or I'm getting hassled at work over some meaningless minutia, or my son breaks another bone on his skateboard. But we do have a way of bouncing back. (From a psalmL Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.) I look around at friends and family, most everyone I know is on a script for something or other. My emotional baseline was changed to 'happy optimist.' But I can of course get anxious about stuff.

 

[Chris V++]

When I work on other things in this world, it is also because I believe such work adds to my experience of peace & bliss (or decreases my experience of dukkha).

There is an idea in Christianity that doing good works can invite strife (dukkha) since we are constantly under attack by 'the fiery darts of the adversary. ' So is peace always the result of doing skillful works, or can it backfire?

 

[cloudyday2]

It would be a project that increases my long-term prospects for peace & bliss, at the cost of short-term suffering.

Let's say your purpose in the big scheme is to push a child out of the path of a bus while you yourself are struck and suffer traumatic brain injuries that make peace and bliss impossible. After 20 years of being drugged into a stupor in a mental institution you finally manage to hang yourself with several dirty socks pilfered from the laundry.

But the child you rescued grows-up to be a champion Jeopardy contestant.

Instead of the word "nibbana", call it eternal bliss & happiness if you will.

That doesn't work if there is no eternity.

 

[cloudyday2]

@ananda , sorry if it seems that I have been overly critical of Buddhism. Depression sometimes makes me lash-out at whatever is convenient.

 

[ananda]

There is an idea in Christianity that doing good works can invite strife (dukkha) since we are constantly under attack by 'the fiery darts of the adversary. ' So is peace always the result of doing skillful works, or can it backfire?

Skillful works always results in its skillful results, but that doesn't mean that other factors don't come into play (such as adversaries). The Path involves mainly skillful action and revision on the phenomeneological-psychological level of reality which forms the basis of all experience on other levels of reality, and it is that former level where we can gain the most control to the exclusion of all other influences.

 

[ananda]

Let's say your purpose in the big scheme is to push a child out of the path of a bus while you yourself are struck and suffer traumatic brain injuries that make peace and bliss impossible. After 20 years of being drugged into a stupor in a mental institution you finally manage to hang yourself with several dirty socks pilfered from the laundry.

But the child you rescued grows-up to be a champion Jeopardy contestant.

Why should that be my purpose? Also, brain injury does not preclude practice of the Path, since in our practice we see that consciousness can transcend body & mind, as when we can observe a painful sensation from afar.

That doesn't work if there is no eternity.

I don't know if there is or isn't such a thing as eternity, but practice of the Path produces an experience of progressively longer-lasting sukkha, so I have no reason to disbelieve in its natural, final conclusion.

 

[ananda]

@ananda , sorry if it seems that I have been overly critical of Buddhism. Depression sometimes makes me lash-out at whatever is convenient.

No need for apologies to me - you brought up valid questions that I had previously answered for myself to my satisfaction, and I am glad I can share them.

Much metta to you - may you find the causes of your depression & skillfully work to correct them for better health.

 

[Chris V++]

Skillful works always results in its skillful results, but that doesn't mean that other factors don't come into play (such as adversaries). The Path involves mainly skillful action and revision on the phenomeneological-psychological level of reality which forms the basis of all experience on other levels of reality, and it is that former level where we can gain the most control to the exclusion of all other influences.

I guess we have something similar. We are to wear 'the full armor of God. ' to protect us against the adversaries. Breastplate of righteousness, shield of faith, sword of the Spirit, etc. These are attitudes and behaviors. The sword is the word. We have prayer too. What is your concept of prayer? What is prayer?

 

[ananda]

I guess we have something similar. We are to wear 'the full armor of God. ' to protect us against the adversaries. Breastplate of righteousness, shield of faith, sword of the Spirit, etc. These are attitudes and behaviors. The sword is the word. We have prayer too. What is your concept of prayer? What is prayer?

Prayer is seen in Buddhism as attempts at communication with another consciousness in samsara on the mental continuum, usually with a lower- or mid-level deva/deity. Success or failure in such attempts depends much on the cultivated abilities of the "transmitter" as well as the "receiver".

 

[Chris V++]

Prayer is seen in Buddhism as attempts at communication with another consciousness in samsara on the mental continuum, usually with a lower- or mid-level deva/deity. Success or failure in such attempts depends much on the cultivated abilities of the "transmitter" as well as the "receiver".

How do you cultivate abilities to transmit and is success quantifiable in some way or is it a matter of increasing your peace and understanding? Can you ask for desired outcomes in the material world?

 

[ananda]

How do you cultivate abilities to transmit and is success quantifiable in some way or is it a matter of increasing your peace and understanding? Can you ask for desired outcomes in the material world?

The development of supranormal powers are said to correspond with the degree of mental development & concentration. We can ask deities for assistance, but like any individual with individual proclivities, they can choose to intervene or not. More often than not, they don't, since the lower words (in relation to theirs), like the human world, are compared to a dense cesspool which they stay away from. (The same comparison is made between lower heavenly realms and higher heavenly realms, relatively speaking)