• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How many ex-Christians are there here on CF and reason for leaving Christianity?

Did you leave Christianity? And did you return?


  • Total voters
    46

nChrist

AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith
Site Supporter
Mar 21, 2003
21,119
17,842
Oklahoma, USA
✟924,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There's an error in your poll. There is no choice for "Zero - No such person as an ex-Christian". Once you become a REAL Christian, you're a REAL Christian forever.

Going to church doesn't make one a Christian. "Once Saved - Always Saved" is a completely true statement. Nobody can undo the Salvation work done by God when a person becomes saved. The promises of God are in effect at the moment of Salvation (i.e. eternal life, heart sealed by the Holy Spirit as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ). You are born again from above, and you can't be unborn.

Romans 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟591,302.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
In July this year my boat exploded taking with it everything I needed in everyday living,

Bought another one, in it there is a sticker,
it is a guy with inflateable rings around his arms, a lifebouy around his waist,

under it says,
"Cry baby"
Don,t know what to make of it, but think it is amusing,
so it stays.

Do not know either what it has to do with the thread, but there has to be something in it,
haha.
Sorry to hear about your boat.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Indeed, there can be no parallel saying, because our end goal - from our perspective - transcends "the Father": "many thousands of deities have gone for refuge for life to the recluse Gotama" Majjhima Nikaya 95.9.

Christians can't transcend. We are commanded to be respectful of our place, even in the 10 commandments. The serpent deceived Adam and Eve with a promise of transcending. It was a trap.

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Robban

-----------
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2009
11,609
3,169
✟809,634.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Divorced
Sorry to hear about your boat.

Thanks gents,

Though it is like the story of my life,

from the beginning losing a home, (doodlebugs)

and onward, but, whatever I have lost has been replaced by something better.


Though we don,t always see it at the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

Rajni

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2007
8,567
3,943
Visit site
✟1,371,555.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Single
There's an error in your poll. There is no choice for "Zero - No such person as an ex-Christian". Once you become a REAL Christian, you're a REAL Christian forever.

Going to church doesn't make one a Christian. "Once Saved - Always Saved" is a completely true statement. Nobody can undo the Salvation work done by God when a person becomes saved. The promises of God are in effect at the moment of Salvation (i.e. eternal life, heart sealed by the Holy Spirit as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ). You are born again from above, and you can't be unborn.
As a Christian I had always believed in the OSAS
perspective, and, given what you say here, this is a
distinct possibility too:

Some self-titled "ex-Christians" may still be True
Christians™ whether they like or not, because the gifts
and the call are irrevocable.
It's just that as they
evolve in their growth as True Christians™, they
become something beyond what others would accept
as True Christians™ based on the surrounding culture
and whatever it is that's being taught in Vacation Bible
School that week.

That could be why there are those (such as myself)
who find that the fruit of the Spirit continues to grow in
them in spite of having shed the "True Christian™"
label. Once it's activated, it can't be deactivated, no
matter what labels are used over time.


-
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
Christians can't transcend. We are commanded to be respectful of our place, even in the 10 commandments. The serpent deceived Adam and Eve with a promise of transcending. It was a trap.

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
As a Buddhist, I see both "God" and the serpent as manifestations of - or at least influenced by - Mara, another deity who wishes to keep individuals like mankind trapped in samsaric existence:

The Blessed One said: “On one occasion recently I was staying in Ukkaṭṭha in the Subhaga forest at the root of a royal Sal tree. Now on that occasion an evil viewpoint had arisen to God [Baka Brahma]: ‘This is constant. This is permanent. This is eternal. This is total. This is not subject to falling away—for this does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear. And there is no other, higher escape.' ... So I—having known with my awareness the line of thinking in God’s awareness—as a strong man would extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, vanished into the root of the royal Sal tree in the Subhaga forest in Ukkaṭṭha and appeared in that Brahmā world ... When this was said, I told God, ‘How immersed in ignorance is God! How immersed in ignorance is God!' ... Then Māra, the Evil One, taking possession of an attendant of God's assembly, said to me, ‘Monk! Monk! Don’t attack him! Don’t attack him! For this God, monk, is the Great God, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be' ... When this was said, I told Māra the Evil One, ‘I know you, Evil One. Don’t assume, “He doesn’t know me.” You are Māra, Evil One. And God, and God’s assembly, and the attendants of God’s assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power ..." Majjhima Nikaya 49
 
  • Haha
Reactions: ICONO'CLAST
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As a Buddhist, I see both "God" and the serpent as manifestations of - or at least influenced by - Mara, another deity who wishes to keep individuals like mankind trapped in samsaric existence:

The Blessed One said: “On one occasion recently I was staying in Ukkaṭṭha in the Subhaga forest at the root of a royal Sal tree. Now on that occasion an evil viewpoint had arisen to God [Baka Brahma]: ‘This is constant. This is permanent. This is eternal. This is total. This is not subject to falling away—for this does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear. And there is no other, higher escape.' ... So I—having known with my awareness the line of thinking in God’s awareness—as a strong man would extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, vanished into the root of the royal Sal tree in the Subhaga forest in Ukkaṭṭha and appeared in that Brahmā world ... When this was said, I told God, ‘How immersed in ignorance is God! How immersed in ignorance is God!' ... Then Māra, the Evil One, taking possession of an attendant of God's assembly, said to me, ‘Monk! Monk! Don’t attack him! Don’t attack him! For this God, monk, is the Great God, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be' ... When this was said, I told Māra the Evil One, ‘I know you, Evil One. Don’t assume, “He doesn’t know me.” You are Māra, Evil One. And God, and God’s assembly, and the attendants of God’s assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power ..." Majjhima Nikaya 49

So is the fundamental difference that Buddhism 's end is to transcend to deity status, not to be Godly, but to be a God and no longer deceived by Mara, whereas Christianity views the church as the Bride of Christ, to be joined together in a familia relationship, under one head?
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
So is the fundamental difference that Buddhism 's end is to transcend to deity status, not to be Godly, but to be a God and no longer deceived by Mara, whereas Christianity views the church as the Bride of Christ, to be joined together in a familia relationship, under one head?
Buddhism's end is to achieve nibbana - the establishment of the highest sukha & the cessation of all dukkha.

For us, mankind's end goal is not about life or death, but of sukha and dukkha. For example, many theists seek eternal life with their god not as an end unto itself, but because they see it as a promise for something more profound: everlasting sukha. If eternal life came with the promise of everlasting dukkha, who would choose that path?

Likewise, literally all of mankind's activity is geared towards increasing sukha & decreasing dukkha. That is why people seek heaven, gods, saviors, prophets, psychics, life, death, family, riches, work, entertainment, sex, sleep, etc. Depending on individual tendencies, such things are done because they are seen to increase sukha & decrease dukkha. Buddhism identifies and works towards that highest goal of sukha, not an intermediary goal like heaven.

A side note: many gods, in Buddhism, live for so long (aeons) that many of them mistakenly believe that they are eternal. Some are sovereign in their own heavenly kingdom in a sense (like Baka Brahma), and do not possess the ability to observe deities in superior heavens. Achievement of nibbana takes one outside the incessant cycle of samsaric rebirth, of which even the highest gods are still subject.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So is Mara the source of all dukkah? Christians have our disobedience and sin to deal with. Our world is said to be 'fallen.' We have a sin nature. We break God's commandments. We are prey to demons. What do Buddhists make of sin?
 
Upvote 0

Ricky M

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2017
1,905
1,320
68
Los Angeles
✟130,574.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Been a Christian since going forth at a Billy Graham meeting when I was 5. Seen enough to know it is all true. Even if I were to say there is no God, I would know it is me who is the liar not Him. But that doesn't mean I don't have some serious questions and issues with Him.

I'm still new here so I haven't been thru it all yet, but there are some who say you CAN'T leave Christianity, or if you do you were never actually a Christian.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: nChrist
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
So is Mara the source of all dukkah? Christians have our disobedience and sin to deal with. Our world is said to be 'fallen.' We have a sin nature. We break God's commandments. We are prey to demons. What do Buddhists make of sin?
Mara is not the source of dukkha. "Mara" is more of a title, mostly applied to divine beings/gods who - for whatever reason - maliciously or ignorantly design to encourage others to stay in the samsaric cycle.

Our craving/clinging, caused by ignorance, is how we create our own dukkha.

In Buddhism, there is no sin - in the sense of offending a supreme deity's laws. Rather, we do see unskillful behavior, however - unskillfullness based on craving (wanting something), aversion (wanting to push something away), and ignorance, all of which creates more dukkha.
 
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There is no sin in Buddhism. Rather, we do see unskillful behavior, however - unskillfullness based on craving (wanting something), aversion (wanting to push something away), and ignorance, all of which creates more dukkha.
Christians have a similar 'reap what you sow' concept. So how long might the samsaric cycle last for those oppressed by their unskillful behavior? (Is that a fair way to view unskillful behavior- it oppresses self and others?) Does the cycle expand across lifetimes until enlightenment is obtained?
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
Christians have a similar 'reap what you sow' concept. So how long might the samsaric cycle last for those oppressed by their unskillful behavior? (Is that a fair way to view unskillful behavior- it oppresses self and others?) Does the cycle expand across lifetimes until enlightenment is obtained?
In Buddhism, the cycle of existence in the various hellish-earthly-heavenly realms of samara is essentially unending, with the only true escape being the Buddha's Path which leads "out" of samsaric craving & ignorance towards true wisdom which achieves nibbana.

Existence in the heavens within samsara may be blissful for a short or longer period of time, but even those godly beings will eventually die and be reborn elsewhere in samsara based on the kamma they have reaped, even towards a new rebirth into the hellish realms (e.g. for malicious gods).

Yes, unskillful behavior oppresses self & others.
 
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
even towards a new rebirth into the hellish realms (e.g. for malicious gods).
Then there must be a concept for sin, or is maliciousness a sin- like attribute exclusive to the gods? Are mortals just influenced by malicious Gods and therefore can't sin but rather behave unskillfully due to ignorance of how to navigate life among the malicious gods?
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
Then there must be a concept for sin, or is maliciousness a sin- like attribute exclusive to the gods? Are mortals just influenced by malicious Gods and therefore can't sin but rather behave unskillfully due to ignorance of how to navigate life among the malicious gods?
The equivalent for "sin" is "unskillful behavior/actions". Unskillful kamma causes unskillful results, skillful kamma causes skillful results.

Maliciousness is one particular unskillful behavior; anyone in the heavens, earth, or the hellish realms can engage in it. All beings in all three realms are mortal. We behave unskillfully because of craving, aversion, and ignorance.
 
Upvote 0

Zoness

667, neighbor of the beast
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2008
8,384
1,654
Illinois
✟490,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Thanks! I really like this image of love in all its forms; I can see why this would touch you the way it has. I especially liked this:

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed hearing about it. That stuff can bore people to death sometimes and it takes work to frame it in a cogent way where I don't sound like a total raving lunatic.

Can I ask how Hathor came to be the embodiment of love that was so important to you? I assume you didn't grow up with Egyptian polytheism, so that it wasn't a default choice for you. Of all the pantheons and religious images of love, what drew you to this one in particular?

Good question! So for a bit of background I am 28 now and about ten years ago is when I started exploring any religion outside of Christianity (and also a ton of Christian churches too, I was hoping my problem was just a question of best fit); my first exposure to pagan religions came from one of my best friends and still a practicing Christian (believe it or not) who was fascinated by esoteric and mystical systems in all religions. Through him I met other individuals and became acquainted with ritual orders in the Wiccan religion and got a lot of exposure to Celtic and Gaulish deities of which Wicca is a bit biased towards. My first experience with anything resembling polytheism was with two deities; Lugh and Cernunnos. Later on there were others but I became more open to other pantheons through basically open-mindedness.

(The question of ancestry and pantheons is large enough to fill a book and I could probably wrote several long form essays on it right here but I'll spare you the trouble unless there's interest.)

Essentially it comes down to this: the various pantheons don't exist in a vacuum and nor does their existence imply others do not exist, they're expressions on a wide and rich continuum that transcends cultural, historical and linguistic boundaries. The discovery of Hathor and my relation to her was relatively recent (let's say a year to six months ago) and occurred during a ritual with a pure Kemetic practitioner who welcomed me with open arms to their religious ceremony. It was there that I first seriously considered her aspects and found them especially worthy of recognition. I started making small incense and beer offerings to her and expect nothing in return but I like to reflect on the aspects she covers. I can relate better to other deities now who cover some of her same facets, such as Aphrodite.

Since then it's brought me peace to reflect on her in particular but I have not done this at the cost of others. Deities that have come into my focus include but are not limited to Brigid, Lugh, Cernunnos, Epona, Sulis, Athena, Hermes and Selene. These cover a wide swath but are all effectively descended from proto-Indo-European religious contexts.

Now to be clear I am not putting forth a suggestion that my way is the only right way to approach of this; you're talking to a guy who regularly bats of fits of nihilism and a severe distrust of big religions (especially Christianity) who is making an honest effort to remain somewhat spiritual. Maybe I am making it all up or maybe there's something there but what I will say is no matter where I come out; I will have grown stronger and more perceptive for the experiences and every discarded answer is just another stone on the path forward, wherever that leads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

Chris V++

Associate Member
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2018
1,715
1,506
Dela Where?
Visit site
✟836,522.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In Buddhism, the cycle of existence in the various hellish-earthly-heavenly realms of samara is essentially unending, with the only true escape being the Buddha's Path which leads "out" of samsaric craving & ignorance towards true wisdom which achieves nibbana.

.
So how do you know when you have escaped the cycle and have walked (or are walking) the Buddha's path and achieved (or are achieving) nibbana?
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟591,302.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
The equivalent for "sin" is "unskillful behavior/actions". Unskillful kamma causes unskillful results, skillful kamma causes skillful results.

Maliciousness is one particular unskillful behavior; anyone in the heavens, earth, or the hellish realms can engage in it. All beings in all three realms are mortal. We behave unskillfully because of craving, aversion, and ignorance.
Can we throw-out the heaven and hell part of Buddhism along with the afterlife and nirvana? How would it work if it was simply "follow these guidelines and you might feel better and make others feel better in this meaningless futile life"?
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
So how do you know when you have escaped the cycle and have walked (or are walking) the Buddha's path and achieved (or are achieving) nibbana?
Progressing along the Buddha's Path, I observe an ever increasing peace & sukha. Completing the Path should result in permanent peace & permanent sukha, and no more dukkha.
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟193,871.00
Marital Status
Private
Can we throw-out the heaven and hell part of Buddhism along with the afterlife and nirvana?
Blind faith in the Buddhist heavens, hells, and afterlife are not a necessary component in the Buddha's Path. It is said that advanced practitioners will eventually observe these things for themselves anyways, so at that point, they will have no need for faith in them.

Nibbana is not a place that we must have faith in either - it is rather a state of cessation of suffering & composed of the highest bliss, so in that sense, it is conceivable and not subject to faith.

How would it work if it was simply "follow these guidelines and you might feel better and make others feel better in this meaningless futile life"?
All that is expected at the beginning of the Path is an acknowledgement of the truth of the law of cause & effect (aka kamma), and that we must initiate or modify our own causes in order to produce the desired effects, like cessation of dukkha. That's why "Right View" is at the beginning of the Path.

This Right View motivates us towards Right Intentions (towards achieving the goal), then right morality (Right Speech, Action, Livelihood) done with Right Effort gives us the mental stability & strength to achieve Right Mindfulness & Right Concentration of mind. A rightly concentrated mind can see with wisdom, which allows us to progressively cut out all our unskillful behavior which causes suffering. This is how the Eightfold Path naturally leads toward full Awakening, without need for faith and dogma.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0