wine or grape juice ? (holy supper)

[thecolorsblend]

According to you, he used blood

Not at all, we believe He and the apostles drank wine as I said in my other post.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We use "non-alcoholic" wine in our services in following the biblical prescription of the Lord's Table. The ABV is too low to be considered alcoholic, but it has enough to be considered "wine," although normally wines are usually above 10%. Anyways, this is more acceptable than giving people (especially ex-alcoholics and teenagers in our congregation) anything against the law.

They say the alcohol content in the day would have been much lower than today's standard.

There is a product called 'must' (from vinum mustum or young wine) which has a bit of alcohol but not enough to send any bit the rarest folks into trouble. It is legitimate matter for Catholics to use as it is real wine but just not very far in the fermentation process. What is NOT allowed is any fortified wine, or wine with other additives, or just grape juice. But that's Catholic practice. I thought Baptists used grape juice. But then I haven't seen a response from a Baptist yet in this thread.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Not at all, we believe He and the apostles drank wine as I said in my other post.

Then you're saying he lied when he said, "This is my blood." It's the exact same argument that the Catholics keep using against us. You can't have it both ways.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Wine not only represents the blood of Christ but it is what Jesus used at the Last Supper when he instituted the ordinance and commended it to his followers. Grape juice was not involved.

But on the other hand, if I am in a church that believes the bread and wine are only representations of something and the event is, in total, a symbol and a commemoration...

I wonder if it is wrong of them to use juice for that very reason--it is only a representation of something else.

I am one of those who thinks Communion is only synbolic because biologically, grapes are still grapes in a shot cup and flour is still flour in a cracker. But I am with Colors on this one. Jesus drank wine, so it must be wine. He called it wine. Grape juice is not Biblical.

Except for alcoholics in the 12-step program, a few sips of wine (less than one ounce) should do no harm. I should not drink alcohol for medical reasons but can't imagine having a problem after Communion.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus drank wine, so it must be wine. He called it wine. Grape juice is not Biblical.

Yes.

Grapes are a seasonal crop in Israel. Grapes are harvested in August/September. The only way to avoid spoiling a grape product until spring--Passover--is by either drying the grapes to raisins or fermenting the juice to wine.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Grapes are ripe here right now too. My mom has been eating them. Can they be fermented and then kept at room temperature for 6 months?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Then you're saying he lied when he said, "This is my blood." It's the exact same argument that the Catholics keep using against us. You can't have it both ways.

Heh, okay bro.

 

[JM]

i've seen churches that use wine, other grape juice

what is the difference?

One is commanded to be used the other is substituted to appease the teetotalers and before we get to the "weaker brother" argument really think about it...

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[twin1954]

Wine not only represents the blood of Christ but it is what Jesus used at the Last Supper when he instituted the ordinance and commended it to his followers. Grape juice was not involved.

But on the other hand, if I am in a church that believes the bread and wine are only representations of something and the event is, in total, a symbol and a commemoration...

I wonder if it is wrong of them to use juice for that very reason--it is only a representation of something else.

Yes it is a representation but a representation should represent.

 

[Albion]

Yes it is a representation but a representation should represent.

huh?

 

[twin1954]

Grapes are ripe here right now too. My mom has been eating them. Can they be fermented and then kept at room temperature for 6 months?

Yes. That is what the fermenting process does. It purifys the wine when complete and preserves it. Wine that is not fully fermented will pop the cork. I had this happen to me actually.

Flour that has leaven in it will mold and turn bad. Unleavened flour is used to make the bread for the Lord's Supper. Leaven causes the bread to rise, unleavened bread is flat.

 

[twin1954]

huh?

Grape juice doesn't represent. It isn't purified by the fermentation process. It simply isn't what wine is. It isn't purified naturally.

That is what I meant. For it to be a representation it must actually represent.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Hey twin, why do you identify yourself as both a Baptist and a Calvinist?

I agree gra[e juice does not represent wine.

 

[Albion]

Grape juice doesn't represent. It isn't purified by the fermentation process. It simply isn't what wine is. It isn't purified naturally.

That is what I meant. For it to be a representation it must actually represent.

Okay. I appreciate the follow-up. However, you could in theory use Coca-Cola and say that the church meant it as a representation of the wine used at the Last Supper. It would be possible to do that if all it meant was that it stood for something else.

OTOH, I agree that if Communion is taken to be something other than a symbol (which is the position taken by the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and others), then it is necessary to use what Christ used.

 

[JM]

Hey twin, why do you identify yourself as both a Baptist and a Calvinist?

I agree gra[e juice does not represent wine.

Not all Calvinists are paedobaptists. Calvinism refers to a soteriological perspective and not Reformed Christianity but is mistakenly used to refer to the Reformed denominations.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[RDKirk]

Hey twin, why do you identify yourself as both a Baptist and a Calvinist?

The original Baptists in America were Calvinists--they literally came over on the Mayflower. I'd expect many still are. Calvinist Baptists brought the concept of "separation of Church and State" to the US.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Oh I thought Puritans were on that ship because they were the ones American history teachers talk about (along with the Amish).

 

[RDKirk]

Oh I thought Puritans were on that ship because they were the ones American history teachers talk about (along with the Amish).

Some of the Puritans were also called Separatists--who believed the Church and the State should be separated. Another Separatist coming in on a later ship was Roger Williams. Roger Williams established the first Baptist congregation in America (the real First Baptist Church). Roger Williams was a remarkable man in many ways, but he was also the person who made "separation of Church and State" a milestone in American political thought. That concept, however, was actually rooted in the way he viewed Calvinist conviction about the Elect.

 

[twin1954]

Okay. I appreciate the follow-up. However, you could in theory use Coca-Cola and say that the church meant it as a representation of the wine used at the Last Supper. It would be possible to do that if all it meant was that it stood for something else.

OTOH, I agree that if Communion is taken to be something other than a symbol (which is the position taken by the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and others), then it is necessary to use what Christ used.

Type and anti- type must have agreement. The symbolic nature of the wine must agree with what it symbolizes. Just as baptism symbolizes Union in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the elements in the Lord's Supper represent feeding on the body and blood of Christ by faith. Therefore it must be unleavened bread and wine.

 

[twin1954]

Hey twin, why do you identify yourself as both a Baptist and a Calvinist?

I agree gra[e juice does not represent wine.

Because that is what I am, a Calvinistic Baptist.