What are the ethics of this?

[Albion]

No, he won't. It's unlikely the hospital will take him to court, they will just send it to a collection agency (the collection agency will then own the debt).

He can let it go to collections, refusing to pay. That will, of course, ruin his credit record. But in seven years it will be dropped from his credit record.

You're reading something into my post, I see.

 

[The Barbarian]

Something like this happened to me a long time ago, in which a facility was in-network, but decided that they'd charge over the limit, anyway. We refused to pay the overcharge, and ultimately, I was talking with an in-house collector. I pointed out that they had signed an agreement with the insurance company WRT fees, and they couldn't legally charge more.

"I know that, but consider that we can still report this to credit agencies and your credit rating will suffer."

"I don't intend to be the victim here. If you don't adjust the bill, I'll take you to small claims court. You'll lose the case, I'll get damages from you, and you'll be ordered to correct any false information to credit agencies.

And the record will go to the BBB, the State Insurance Board, and your regulatory agencies, including JCAH, because I'll inform all of them."

(Mrs. Barbarian had primed me with all that information except the part about regulatory agencies; I was the backup representative for my company with the state professional liability pool)

"Under the circumstances, we will adjust the bill."

 

[RDKirk]

Which doesn't mean that you should be paying for it. See what you can negotiate. But sure the agreement includes agreement not to put a ding on your credit report.

Which they will normally do.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Recently my husband injured himself and had to go to the ER. He has insurance through his work so we thought it would be covered minus deductible plus Co pay. However, due to this being a freestanding ER and it being out of network, legally they are entitled to balance bill us and we have to pay the difference.
It turns out we have to pay about $6k that was not covered by insurance. We had exhausted all our appeals and by law we owe this money. The thing is we have the money since my hubby has been saving up to buy a jeep. This would knock him back to about $4k towards his dream car if he paid the bill.
His plan is to go out and plunk the entire amount he saved (about 10k) as his down payment on the Jeep and just let 6k we owe go into collections. So basically he is planning on getting his car loan before stiffing the ER so he can still get a good rate on the car loan.
This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?

It sounds as though your husband has the money to pay the debt but simply doesn't want to.

His health insurance policy says he has to do it, common sense says he has to do it and the law says he has to do it. It should be a no-brainer.

So he's taking this opportunity to buy a new Jeep!

Yes, this sounds very unethical to me. Personally, I'd even say it's immoral. If you simply didn't have the money, I bet other arrangements could be made. But since you do, I don't see an ethical way of not paying. I'm sure it'll be frustrating for him but it's time to do the right thing.

 

[NoelJack]

It sounds as though your husband has the money to pay the debt but simply doesn't want to.

His health insurance policy says he has to do it, common sense says he has to do it and the law says he has to do it. It should be a no-brainer.

So he's taking this opportunity to buy a new Jeep!

Yes, this sounds very unethical to me. Personally, I'd even say it's immoral. If you simply didn't have the money, I bet other arrangements could be made. But since you do, I don't see an ethical way of not paying. I'm sure it'll be frustrating for him but it's time to do the right thing.

I think he should pay. But the question is how do I convince him to think that? is very difficult to convince him of this when legal counsel at his work (Jewish guy) is telling him that there is no real consequences to not paying, our family doctor (Muslim) is encouraging him not to pay and I don't want to embittered him towards Christian ethics any more than he already is. What is the correct way to lead some one to doing the right thing without bullying and badgering them because that's not what God wants. God wants cheerful obedience.

 

[thecolorsblend]

But the question is how do I convince him to think that? is very difficult to convince him of this when legal counsel at his work (Jewish guy) is telling him that there is no real consequences to not paying

That explains a lot.

 

[NoelJack]

So last week my husband called the billing people of the ER and told them he will not pay the 6K because he wants to buy a jeep. He was very rude and at times hostile to the poor woman on the phone. He told them that they can go ahead and sell the debt to a collection agency where they may get 5 cents on the dollar. Then he hung up on them. About an hour later they called back and agreed to settle for 600 instead of 6000. My husband initially refused to pay that too but finally agreed to settle for 500. The ER decided to settle the whole 6000 dollar bill for 500. Is it wrong for us to take it? I know they agreed but this still feels very very wrong. My husband is happy now and all he talks about is how he plans to buy the Jeep of his dreams next month but I still feel that it isn't right that he practically bullied the ER into taking less than 10percent. Should I just forget about this and let hubby enjoy his jeep or should I try to get him to maybe show some good will and pay a little bit more to the ER?

 

[RDKirk]

So last week my husband called the billing people of the ER and told them he will not pay the 6K because he wants to buy a jeep. He was very rude and at times hostile to the poor woman on the phone. He told them that they can go ahead and sell the debt to a collection agency where they may get 5 cents on the dollar. Then he hung up on them. About an hour later they called back and agreed to settle for 600 instead of 6000. My husband initially refused to pay that too but finally agreed to settle for 500. The ER decided to settle the whole 6000 dollar bill for 500. Is it wrong for us to take it? I know they agreed but this still feels very very wrong. My husband is happy now and all he talks about is how he plans to buy the Jeep of his dreams next month but I still feel that it isn't right that he practically bullied the ER into taking less than 10percent. Should I just forget about this and let hubby enjoy his jeep or should I try to get him to maybe show some good will and pay a little bit more to the ER?

He is still wrong and they're still going to screw up your credit.

 

[NoelJack]

He is still wrong and they're still going to screw up your credit.

How is it going to screw up credit? They agreed to settle the bill for 500 without it going to collections. They gave us an adjusted bill where all the services were discounted. I agree the ethics are still questionable but how does this affect credit ?

 

[RDKirk]

How is it going to screw up credit? They agreed to settle the bill for 500 without it going to collections. They gave us an adjusted bill where all the services were discounted. I agree the ethics are still questionable but how does this affect credit ?

They still make a credit comment about a debt not satisfactorily paid. Same thing as a charge off.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

ethically and morally he's totally wrong.

legally(regarding the new settlement) he's free and clear, though he got this through immoral actions.

he had the money to pay and he needed to pay. there would have been no financial hardship if he paid the original bill. not being able to buy a high priced item that you don't need in the timeframe you would like is not a financial hardship.

if he's not a believer there's nothing you can do to convince him to do the right thing and even less so now as he just got a way with murder financially. what you need to do for your husband is proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to him. there's nothing you can do about the moral behavior of your husband while he still abides in adam 1.

 

[public hermit]

Set up a payment plan with them and then get the car

 

[LoricaLady]

Since your husband is not a believer, it may be that appealing to him to do what is moral will have no weight with him at all.

The only thing that would work is if you had the data showing that things aren't going to be as simple and carefree for him as he thinks. He would apparently have to see the practical, tangible, harm that could come to his wallet sooner or later. Some people above are giving you data to consider. Maybe there is more out there.

 

[NoelJack]

Set up a payment plan with them and then get the car

Is that still a possibility since they discharged the debt for a one time payment of 500 dollars?

The only thing that would work is if you had the data showing that things aren't going to be as simple and carefree for him as he thinks. He would apparently have to see the practical, tangible, harm that could come to his wallet sooner or later. Some people above are giving you data to consider. Maybe there is more out there.

Unfortunately his buddy in legal walked him thorough how to deal with the ER. he was even the one who advised him to two then flat out I can pay but won't. That guy even called it that if you show hospitals you flat out won't pay, they will offer you just barely more than they can get from a collector. So that's how a 6000 dollar bill magically turned into a 500 dollar bill. This is really similar I guess to what @The Barbarian suggested but it feels so wrong since he had the 6000 to pay out right.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Recently my husband injured himself and had to go to the ER. He has insurance through his work so we thought it would be covered minus deductible plus Co pay. However, due to this being a freestanding ER and it being out of network, legally they are entitled to balance bill us and we have to pay the difference.
It turns out we have to pay about $6k that was not covered by insurance. We had exhausted all our appeals and by law we owe this money. The thing is we have the money since my hubby has been saving up to buy a jeep. This would knock him back to about $4k towards his dream car if he paid the bill.
His plan is to go out and plunk the entire amount he saved (about 10k) as his down payment on the Jeep and just let 6k we owe go into collections. So basically he is planning on getting his car loan before stiffing the ER so he can still get a good rate on the car loan.
This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?

Pay your bills before you buy fancy dream cars. Beyond that, if the ER matter goes to collections they will eventually file a lawsuit against your husband. Once they obtain a judgment they can seize the jeep and sell it at auction with the proceeds going to pay his debts.

 

[Redwingfan9]

He is willing to face all of this?


What Happens If You Don't Pay a Court Judgement?

If a court judgment goes unpaid, the debtor has the right to initiate collection proceedings, says Lawyers.com. The debtor can start the proceedings after 30 days have passed with no payment.

Once a creditor is successful in obtaining a judgment against a debtor, the creditor can take steps to garnish wages or seize assets, reports Credit.com. A judgment also allows the creditor to take other measures to collect a debt, such as wage garnishment, explains Lawyers.com. Creditors also have the right to ask banks to seize the debtor's bank account, notes Nolo. Any measures taken by a creditor to collect a debt on a judgment must conform to mandated consumer protection laws.

If a creditor is seeking collection through wage garnishment, the court orders the garnishment and this process is continued until the debt is paid, states Lawyers.com. There are limits to the amount withheld from wages. In instances when a large amount of money is owed, certain property can be seized. This includes real estate and vehicles. It's also possible that those who owe judgments and fail to pay risk suspension of their drivers licenses. In some states professional licenses can be suspended. A debtor may consider setting up a payment plan to streamline the payment process, notes Lawyers.com.

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/happens-don-t-pay-court-judgement-e826ac7dafed89d4

This is good basic advice, though collection laws vary by state. Here in Michigan we can garnish 25% of wages, state income tax returns and bank accounts. We can seize cars and other valuable property but we can't put a judgment lien on a home that is co-owned by a wife. If a debtor owns real property independently of a spouse, then we can put a judgment lien on the property. Other states have different limitations.

 

[FullSunDaisy]

So last week my husband called the billing people of the ER and told them he will not pay the 6K because he wants to buy a jeep. He was very rude and at times hostile to the poor woman on the phone. He told them that they can go ahead and sell the debt to a collection agency where they may get 5 cents on the dollar. Then he hung up on them. About an hour later they called back and agreed to settle for 600 instead of 6000. My husband initially refused to pay that too but finally agreed to settle for 500. The ER decided to settle the whole 6000 dollar bill for 500. Is it wrong for us to take it? I know they agreed but this still feels very very wrong. My husband is happy now and all he talks about is how he plans to buy the Jeep of his dreams next month but I still feel that it isn't right that he practically bullied the ER into taking less than 10percent. Should I just forget about this and let hubby enjoy his jeep or should I try to get him to maybe show some good will and pay a little bit more to the ER?

Your husband is 10000% wrong very very very wrong. A little bit of context, I work in the billing internal collections for a freestand ER and I want to dispel a couple misconceptions. Firstly, what is happening to OP’s husband is called Balance Billing and we absolutely have a right to do it. Balance billing is were we have the patient pay the portion which insurance does not cover. Due to federal health insurance laws, insurance companies are suppose to treat all emergency visits as in network, but the problem is what most insurance companies are willing to pay in network is woefully inadequate to cover the cost of treatment so we ask the patients to pitch in. Yes it does come as a bit of sticker shock especially when the patient is told insurance will treat it as in network but it is necessary for us to recoup our costs. And for the person who said that it’s is a “loophole”, IT ISNT we have significant costs that ERs attached to hospitals do not, yet like a hospital ER we cannot turn away injured due to inability to pay. This coupled with people flat out not paying, our revenues are razor thin. We are actually dependent on people who can pay paying a bit more than what seems “fair” to remain solvent. Of course we are willing to work with people who cannot pay but if you claim Christianity you better be walking the talk by willing paying the full asking price if you are able.
Speaking about the law, the law does very little to protect our businesses. Due to political special interests the Insurance companies are able to arbitrarily determine how much they pay so we get screwed there and due to political pandering, there are soooooo many “consumer protections” that really hamper our ability to collect on balance billing. Those laws practically have no teeth and judgements are almost never made or enforced. Really the only tool we have is reporting to credit bureaus, and even that tool has been severely watered down to please voters. Really no one really looks out for our interests. We are really dependent on people either wanting to avoid the credit ding or just being decent people for us to get paid. Those people who say that we could get a judgement and then seize the Jeep, that’s just wishful thinking and never ever happens especially for an amount under 10k. You hear that OP we are dependent on YOU to convince your hubby to be a decent person. By accepting treatment he made a commitment and he needs to keep it. Freestanding ERS provide a valuable service to the community and it is all of our responsibility to ensure our life saving services are available when they are NEEDED.
Now, I want you to know that sweetheart deal your husband got should almost be criminal. Not only did he take money out of our bottom line he may have well took cash right out of some one like my self’s purse. Let me explain, as internal collections, some one like my self makes very little per hour. We are dependent on the bonuses we receive for securing payment. The closer we get to 80% of the full bill the more of a bonus we get. The reason that poor collector agreed to do five hundred dollars on a 6k bill is because that amount is probably 1 or 2 hundred more than they would have got if it had gone to external collections ( again businesses in our position would have had NO chance of seizing that Jeep). That amount was probably the minimum amount she could have settled for to get any bonus at all. I can’t speak for the agent you guys delt with but right now it’s back to school time and if she makes as little as I do, probably took it to get something rather than nothing.
To answer OPS question, even though the ER agreed to settle for 500, you can/should absolutely ask to make supplemental payments to make things right. Doing so can really make a huge difference to somebody. Your Hubby can do without a Jeep but some one like me cannot do without school shoes for her kids.
Listen OP, you need to get your husband to do the right thing. The reason this falls on you is because the law in this case makes it really easy to not do the right thing. Legally there is little recourse that ER can take so they are dependent on you to awaken your hubbys consciance. If I were you I would not give him a minute of peace to enjoy that Jeep until he makes this right.

 

[FullSunDaisy]

Pay your bills before you buy fancy dream cars. Beyond that, if the ER matter goes to collections they will eventually file a lawsuit against your husband. Once they obtain a judgment they can seize the jeep and sell it at auction with the proceeds going to pay his debts.

This is good basic advice, though collection laws vary by state. Here in Michigan we can garnish 25% of wages, state income tax returns and bank accounts. We can seize cars and other valuable property but we can't put a judgment lien on a home that is co-owned by a wife. If a debtor owns real property independently of a spouse, then we can put a judgment lien on the property. Other states have different limitations.

It seems like OPS husband got the ER to settle for less than 10% of the total. In this situation the ER is practically out of luck since they agreed to settle. Most likely it cannot go to collections any longer. I don’t know what state OP is in but my state is known as a “debtors state” here we don’t have state income tax, wage garnishment are only allowed for child support and Vehicles cannot be seized. Also judges and juries here are very unsympathetic to balance bill issues despite the law being on our side.

 

[Redwingfan9]

It seems like OPS husband got the ER to settle for less than 10% of the total. In this situation the ER is practically out of luck since they agreed to settle. Most likely it cannot go to collections any longer. I don’t know what state OP is in but my state is known as a “debtors state” here we don’t have state income tax, wage garnishment are only allowed for child support and Vehicles cannot be seized. Also judges and juries here are very unsympathetic to balance bill issues despite the law being on our side.

If they negotiated the bill down good for them. In that case, the matter is settled and there's no reason for concern.

Like I indicated, all states have different creditor laws. I'm familiar with Michigan's because I practice here. Other states aren't as pro-creditor, others are more so though.

 

[usexpat97]

I'd say the ethics of this all hinges on whether the ER accounting and/or insurance themselves did something unethical, such as a bait-and-switch. In an emergency, you don't get to thoroughly research a $6000 purchase, as you normally would. If they took advantage of the situation, then you need to fight it. But that is only if you are honest with yourself, and they truly did something like that. Drumming up charges because you just want a Jeep doesn't cut it.