Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

[OldWiseGuy]

Thank you for that. It might be a minority position here, but you are on firm footing there. The second death is not death at all if it is eternal suffering.

Thanks OGW

Gideon

The second death is actually a mercy killing by God.

 

[timothyu]

Everlasting punishment is just what it sounds like.

Yes, denial of eternal life in the Kingdom with no chance of change. No more life, over, kaput. But some humans love the concept of payback. Theirs will not be the Kingdom.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Do you=espouse to this belief? Not the error of it, but that one being anathema to you... dead to you?

blessings,

Gids

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

The Canons and Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils are Infallible so I believe what ever The Councils Say.


.

 

[timothyu]

Out of curiosity. At what point does infallibility end before becoming a tool for man's self justification?

 

[martymonster]

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

The problem is, when you find out that Hell is a man made doctrine, and you use that as licence to sin. If you do that, you were never really a follower of Christ anyway. I've even heard some people say "if there is no such thing as hell, why bother being a Christian" Well, that tells you what that person's reason is for "following Christ"

 

[aiki]

Just to clarify: The terms "death" and "dead" in Scripture have more than one meaning, as do many of the words found in Scripture. It is...convenient for the annihilationist to restrict the meaning of "death" to utter destruction/annihilation, but this is playing fast-and-loose with Scripture, I think. Here are some verses that illustrate that "dead" or "death" in the Bible have a variety of meanings:

Ephesians 2:1 "...dead in trespasses and sins..." - Neither physical death nor destruction are in view in this phrase, but a spiritual condition.

Colossians 3:3 - "For you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God." - Again, here "dead" is used of a spiritual condition, not of a state of annihilation or destruction.

Revelation 3:1 "...you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." - Here, too, "dead" is not used to refer to physical death or annihilation but to a spiritual state.

James 2:17 "Thus also faith, by itself, if it have not works, is dead." - In this instance, "dead" means something like "inoperative," or "inactive," literally "failing to produce works."

Adam and Eve "died" on the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit, but their dying was not a literal physical death, and it certainly wasn't annihilation that they experienced, but, rather, separation from God. (Isaiah 59:2) W.E. Vine comments:

"Death is the opposite of life; it never denotes non-existence. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God," so spiritual death is "conscious existence in separation from God.

Death...is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin..."
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 276)

Romans 8:13 "..if through the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live..." Annihilation or destruction is not meant here by "death" but the halting or cessation of the sinful deeds of the body.

What, then, should be made of the phrase "second death"? Is it speaking of destruction and/or annihilation? Well, the first death doesn't mean this. If "death" means "annihilation," how is a second death possible? "Death" under such a definition would mean that at the first death, the body winks out of existence. But there's usually a corpse and a grave, and, the Bible tells us, judgment of the person to follow. Clearly, then, "death" doesn't mean "annihilation" - not in the instance of the death of the physical body, nor in the instance of the ruination of the unrepentant sinner suffering the "second death" in hell. Primarily, "death," communicates separation, as Vine explained in the quotation above - the soul/spirit from the body at the first death, and the sinner from his Maker at the second death.

 

[Light of the East]

The problem is, when you find out that Hell is a man made doctrine, and you use that as licence to sin. If you do that, you were never really a follower of Christ anyway. I've even heard some people say "if there is no such thing as hell, why bother being a Christian" Well, that tells you what that person's reason is for "following Christ"

Oh. I totally agree with you! In fact, it appears that this knowledge was kept from novices and young Christians until they became more mature in their walk.

You know what.....now that I believe in Apokatastasis, I really haven't had a desire to go back to sin.

 

[Light of the East]

Not really.

Why do you discuss this topic here instead of the Orthodox Forum?

Because Apokatastasis can only be discussed in this forum, according to the forum rules. I'd rather not spend any time in the Sin Bin for breaking the rules.

 

[Light of the East]

The answer to the question you pose is the same as your answer to this question: Do you believe others who believe in everlasting torment, are bad people?

Well......no. I think they are misled. And I am sure that many of them love Jesus much more purely and better than I do.

 

[Light of the East]

Why don't you believe that hell lasts forever? That's my question. Don't you believe that God is a just Judge and that you and I are deserving of eternal separation from him unless Jesus rescues us through his death and resurrection? God does love his world as its Creator, but humanity rebelled against him with a rebellion we all had when we were conceived and born. All of us are worthy of eternal death because God demands that we be perfect the way Jesus called us to be in the Sermon on the Mount. God's special love for believers delivers us through Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that God inspired the Bible as his revelation of himself, our condition, and our relationship with him? If you don't, I challenge you to read it through from beginning to end and then come back here with your questions.

I believe that God is love because the Sacred Scriptures say as much. Now if that is what He IS, then everything He does must be found to be an expression of love. Simply put, God cannot do anything that is not love because that is what He is. He has told us that.

You, therefore, must convince me that it is love to torment someone forever in torments that have been described as beyond our comprehension and last forever. No father does that to a wayward child, and we are all His children. A true and good father heals his child by correction and discipline, even if that discipline is painful.

Humanity did not "rebel" against God. Humanity is sick and our sins are the sign of our sickness. The Eucharist was called "The Medicine of Immortality" by the Early Fathers of the Church because they understood sin in this manner.

The popular concept of hell in the West, both Protestant and Roman Catholic, comes from the influence of the Roman Empire upon the Church. In the Empire, the LAW was everything, and therefore, even believers tended to look at the Scriptures through those lenses. Not so with Orthodoxy, which is concerned with the restoration of the person rather than the breaking of the law.

 

[Light of the East]

Oh, I believe in eternal suffering, but only for rebellious eternal beings who has seen the glory of God first hand and chose their own path.

Now that? That deserves eternal punishment.

blessings,

Gideon

Would any being who has seen both the glory of Jesus Christ in the winsomeness of His love, and also seen the reality of how they are nothing without Him, really chose against his own best self-interest? Really?

 

[Light of the East]

Well, your belief is not in keeping with the testimony of God's word which tells us that it does last forever. (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 14:9-11) Who are you to deny God's word? Why should people let you publicly espouse a false belief unchallenged?

Because the verses you quote have been mistranslated, for one. The Greek word "aionios" does not mean "eternal" That is a different word - adidios, used only twice in the Scriptures and both times referring specifically to God.

I am not denying God's word. If I were Greek speaking and were to read it in the original Greek, this is what I would come up with. Yet some people accuse me of being a horrible sinner to do such a thing.

BTW - there are a number of BAD translations of the Bible out there. The more I study, the more I see that the Bible has been interpreted by people with an agenda to defend, such as how the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible interpreted the word "metanoia" to mean "do penance" when it means no such thing at all.

 

[Light of the East]

Just to clarify: The terms "death" and "dead" in Scripture have more than one meaning, as do many of the words found in Scripture. It is...convenient for the annihilationist to restrict the meaning of "death" to utter destruction/annihilation, but this is playing fast-and-loose with Scripture, I think. Here are some verses that illustrate that "dead" or "death" in the Bible have a variety of meanings:

Ephesians 2:1 "...dead in trespasses and sins..." - Neither physical death nor destruction are in view in this phrase, but a spiritual condition.

Colossians 3:3 - "For you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God." - Again, here "dead" is used of a spiritual condition, not of a state of annihilation or destruction.

Revelations 3:1 "...you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." - Here, too, "dead" is not used to refer to physical death or annihilation but to a spiritual state.

James 2:17 "Thus also faith, by itself, if it have not works, is dead." - In this instance, "dead" means something like "inoperative," or "inactive," literally "failing to produce works."

Adam and Eve "died" on the day they ate of the Forbidden Fruit, but their dying was not a literal physical death and it certainly wasn't annihilation that they experienced, but, rather, separation from God. (Isaiah 59:2) W.E. Vine comments:

"Death is the opposite of life; it never denotes non-existence. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God," so spiritual death is "conscious existence in separation from God.

Death...is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin..."
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 276)

Romans 8:13 "..if through the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live..." Annihilation or destruction is not meant here by "death" but the halting or cessation of the sinful deeds of the body.

What, then, should be made of the phrase "second death"? Is it speaking of destruction and/or annihilation? Well, the first death doesn't mean this. If "death" means "annihilation," how is a second death possible? "Death" under such a definition would mean that at the first death, the body winks out of existence. But there's usually a corpse and a grave, and, the Bible tells us, judgment of the person to follow. Clearly, then, "death" doesn't mean "annihilation" - not in the instance of the death of the physical body, nor in the instance of the ruination of the unrepentant sinner suffering the "second death" in hell. Primarily, "death," communicates separation, as Vine explained in the quotation above - the soul/spirit from the body at the first death, and the sinner from his Maker at the second death.

Nice response. As I mentioned earlier, I keep finding more and more information which shows that translators of the original Greek have been less than honest with their translations because they have an agenda to defend.

For instance, this nonsense from Vines

Death...is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin..."
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 276)

Not in the East. The Orthodox Church takes the position that penal substitution and the corresponding soteriology which accompanies it is in error. Vines falls into the error of the West in thinking that God's dealings with us is according to the Roman Courtroom. Everything in soteriology and eschatology flows from that.

 

[Jonaitis]

To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.

Hell is as an important aspect of the Christian faith as Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Light of the East]

Hell is as an important aspect of the Christian faith as Jesus' resurrection.

If that is so, why is the OT completely silent on the issue? The Jews of the NT had no such idea of such a place. Jesus, therefore, being an orthodox Jew, would not have spoken of it.

Why is eternal punishment rather than healing of the sinner and restoration of that one so important to the Gospel? How is that Good News at all, especially for the billions who never even heard of Jesus?

 

[timothyu]

Man uses fear. God uses love.

 

[Jonaitis]

If that is so, why is the OT completely silent on the issue? The Jews of the NT had no such idea of such a place.

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

Jesus, in the gospel of Mark, quotes from Isaiah 66:24 when he said, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (ch. 9:44), in speaking of Hell.

Jesus, therefore, being an orthodox Jew, would not have spoken of it.

He is spoke more about Hell than all the prophets and apostles combined. I suggest reading the four gospels...

Why is eternal punishment rather than healing of the sinner and restoration of that one so important to the Gospel? How is that Good News at all, especially for the billions who never even heard of Jesus?

Eternal punishment is God's display of divine justice toward evil, and it glorifies his mercy towards those whom he saves. It shows the severe weight that sin carries.

On your second question, we don't deserve to go to heaven, we deserve to be punished. God is not obligated to anyone, he has the right to save no one. Even if someone never heard of Christ, they are still sinners who have rebelled against an absolutely holy God.

 

[Not David]

Because Apokatastasis can only be discussed in this forum, according to the forum rules. I'd rather not spend any time in the Sin Bin for breaking the rules.

I suppose, but I find it counterproductive to discuss Hell with people who don't even see it the same way as Orthodox

 

[Strong in Him]

Yahuweh is not subject to the clay pot He shapes, especially if it is one opposed to Him.

If someone has never heard the Gospel, or heard of, or experienced, God's amazing love, then they haven't opposed him or consciously rejected him.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No.

I personally have left it open when it comes to a conctete understanding of Hell. I get the general idea, but IMO, I think the bible is doing just as intended, by being somewhat vague on the details. I do believe it's forever, but complete inhalation is forever so it's hard to say just what is meant by that, as well as other such explanations.

I think your thought on the issue is generally born of the fear it's searing pain forever, and there is indication of that, but I think if we knew exactly what hell was, we might realize it could be forever as in a separation from God, or simply being burned in a lake of fire for a period of time that equaled our sin until we perish.

I tend to believe there are certain levels to Hell, some worse than others, and it's a separation from God, or complete inhalation after a time of punishment (perish), but we are not intended to know exactly because we might think, "that's not so terrible", and then act like we want, when in reality a separation from God, just in itself, may be more terrible than we can possibly understand. He leaves it partially to our imagination, and nearly, if not impossible to nail down exactly what is what. The way I see it, that pretty much servers the purpose of Gods threat of Hell.