IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

[redleghunter]

so are you saying good works is how our faith is demonstrated?

With the entire passage in mind, what do you think verse 10 concludes?

 

[Oldmantook]

It’s saying those who have been saved by Gods grace in Christ will automatically produce fruit of that being saved. As a tree is known by its fruit. By nature via regeneration, a believer will produce works of righteousness in Christ. Ephesians 2:10. And by Gods grace and power in Christ a believer will endure till the end by faith. As Christ will lose none of His sheep. I think you believe the complete opposite of Ephesians 2: 8-10. As you believe ones works are conditions to stay and maintain ones salvation status. Christ’s righteousness and works of obedience forms the basis for salvation apart from our works.

How is it possible that a genuine believer will automatically produce fruit of that being saved? The NT is replete with much of Paul's epistles describing the exact opposite with believers/churches sinning and Paul's warnings of judgment and apostasy. Regenerated believers have the choice to sin or not to sin. The choice is not automatic.

 

[redleghunter]

How is it possible that a genuine believer will automatically produce fruit of that being saved?

I believe Ephesians 2:1-10 explains this. With emphasis on verse 10.

The NT is replete with much of Paul's epistles describing the exact opposite with believers/churches sinning and Paul's warnings of judgment and apostasy.

Don’t you think Paul in addressing churches in those epistles had in mind wheat and tares?

You presented Romans 8:13. Don’t you think verse 14 answers the question? And verse 15 and especially verse 16?

 

[iLearn]

Just keep it simple. Faith is believe in God. Faith is I do God's will everyday and not my own will. For example God will is for me to smile at people even if I feel bad inside. So I do it even though I don't like it. It's as simple as that. This faith is proven with action. Faith without action is nothing. People who say faith alone saves are realy saying nothing alone saves.

 

[redleghunter]

Just keep it simple. Faith is believe in God. Faith is I do God's will everyday and not my own will. For example God will is for me to smile at people even if I feel bad inside. So I do it even though I don't like it. It's as simple as that. This faith is proven with action. Faith without action is nothing. People who say faith alone saves are realy saying nothing alone saves.

So there’s a difference between Biblical saving faith and unbelief?

 

[iLearn]

So there’s a difference between Biblical saving faith and unbelief?

The difference is clear when Jesus said why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say. If you say you have faith then show me your faith if you can. I will show you my faith through my actions.

 

[Oldmantook]

I believe Ephesians 2:1-10 explains this. With emphasis on verse 10.


Don’t you think Paul in addressing churches in those epistles had in mind wheat and tares?

You presented Romans 8:13. Don’t you think verse 14 answers the question? And verse 15 and especially verse 16?

Respectfully, no I don't think Eph 2:10 buttresses your belief that a believer will automatically produce good fruit because good fruit is a result of one's choices in life. We can choose to sin or refrain from sin. It is not an automatic process but instead involves our will in cooperation with the grace of God. Eph 2:10 states that we were created to do good works but that does not automatically entail that we will in fact do them. Again, a matter of choice to surrender our will to the will of God which results in good fruit.

Some of Paul's writings may have application to wheat/tares however the germane question is do they ONLY apply to wheat/tares. In other words, the possibility is that they not only apply to wheat/tares but also to genuine, regenerate believers. It is not a matter of either-or but both. One simple question to ask is how is it possible for someone who is unsaved to apostatize when it is logically impossible for an unsaved person to depart from the faith that he was never a part of in the first place? It would be ridiculous for Paul to warn an unbeliever against apostatizing. Only true believers can depart from the faith that they were once a part of.

Romans 8:13 is a particularly instructive verse. In the Greek, this verse constitutes as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is also true (you will spiritually die). It is an IF-Then statement. Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis then is you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death.

Verse 14 which follows, affirms that those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. This actually mirrors the second clause in v.13 that those who live according to the Spirit, will live. If believers choose to live according the spirit, they will live (v.13) and be sons of God because they are led of the Spirit (v.14).
The word "led" in v.14 is a present tense Greek verb. Thus all who are being led are sons of God. One must continue to led by the Spirit in order to be a son of God. If one ceases to be led either through no longer believing or no longer following the Spirit; i.e. disobedience, then one is no longer assured of being a son of God.
Verse 15 states that we have not received a spirit of slavery which leads to fear but instead a spirit of adoption. Contrast this with the unbeliever who only has a spirit of slavery and can only choose to sin because he has not yet been regenerated. Because we have been adopted, we can now choose whether to be slaves to sin or slaves to the Spirit.
Again in verse 16, one must pay attention to the verb tense. The word symmartyrei translated as testifies, bears witness, confirms is also a present tense verb. It describes a present state of ongoing action whereby the Spirit is testifying, is bearing witness, is confirming that we are sons of God. The Greek present tense does not state or even imply that we will remain sons of God in the future. Only at the present, we are continuing to be sons of God. Notice that v.17 does however refer to the future. It states that we are fellow heirs and may also be glorified with him - IF WE SUFFER WITH HIM. Our being glorified is conditional.

 

[redleghunter]

The difference is clear when Jesus said why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say. If you say you have faith then show me your faith if you can. I will show you my faith through my actions.

What’s interesting with the “Lord, Lord” quote is how they tried to justify themselves to be righteous:

Matthew 7: NASB

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

 

[redleghunter]

Respectfully, no I don't think Eph 2:10 buttresses your belief that a believer will automatically produce good fruit because good fruit is a result of one's choices in life.

Does the Holy Spirit factor into this at all?

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 8:13 is a particularly instructive verse. In the Greek, this verse constitutes as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is also true (you will spiritually die). It is an IF-Then statement. Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis then is you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death.

This means if I find a verse in the same discourse which does not have “If” it negates your isolated verse? Or was Paul using a comparative or contrasting argument here for demonstration. Let’s look:

Romans 8: NASB

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Verse 9 seems to shore up this comparison. He states the audience is not in the flesh but the Spirit. Then says “If” the Spirit of God dwells with them. So right there he is making the distinction of those who are in the Spirit and those who are not. He then in the following verses switches between the two. Verse 14 comes back to the concrete affirmative that those being led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Paul does not stop at that assertion. He gives concrete assurance that we know if we are children of God with verses 15-17.

Verse 13 taken in isolation creating a pretext, sure what you wrote could be concluded. But the preceding and following verses put your interpretation into question.

 

[Oldmantook]

Does the Holy Spirit factor into this at all?

Can one resist the Holy Spirit? Can one grieve the Holy Spirit. One has choice doesn't he? Produce fruit or resist and grieve the Spirit becoming unfruitful.

 

[Oldmantook]

This means if I find a verse in the same discourse which does not have “If” it negates your isolated verse? Or was Paul using a comparative or contrasting argument here for demonstration. Let’s look:

Romans 8: NASB

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Verse 9 seems to shore up this comparison. He states the audience is not in the flesh but the Spirit. Then says “If” the Spirit of God dwells with them. So right there he is making the distinction of those who are in the Spirit and those who are not. He then in the following verses switches between the two. Verse 14 comes back to the concrete affirmative that those being led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Paul does not stop at that assertion. He gives concrete assurance that we know if we are children of God with verses 15-17.

Verse 13 taken in isolation creating a pretext, sure what you wrote could be concluded. But the preceding and following verses put your interpretation into question.

You have totally ignored the fact that v.13 is a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek and what that entails. I explained what vs. 14-17 mean which you also completely ignored. You are free to believe what you want.

 

[iLearn]

What’s interesting with the “Lord, Lord” quote is how they tried to justify themselves to be righteous:

Matthew 7: NASB

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It was not their works that condemned them, it was their sins which they tried to hide by showing to the Lord their good works instead. God said depart from me you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

 

[Albion]

I have only posted a fraction of the scriptures as the thread would have been way too long.

I recognized that fact, but I could only base the reply on the verses that you gave us to consider.

Although they look, at first glance, to be all carrying out the idea you wanted us to see, they really are of two different kinds of "IF"s. Look closely at what the IF refers to.

This is very much in keeping with the difference between the OT and NT when it comes to the promises of salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

Can one resist the Holy Spirit? Can one grieve the Holy Spirit. One has choice doesn't he? Produce fruit or resist and grieve the Spirit becoming unfruitful.

Yes we can grieve and quench the Holy Spirit as Paul notes. However, the fruit comes from the Vine which is Christ Jesus. If there is no fruit, then they are not of the Vine.

 

[redleghunter]

You have totally ignored the fact that v.13 is a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek and what that entails. I explained what vs. 14-17 mean which you also completely ignored. You are free to believe what you want.

What I offered is verse 13 is not in a microcosm.

 

[Albion]

Sorry but you have to reconcile Rom 8:13 with what you contend. The little word IF indicates a condition.

Are you saying that my basic point about the OT verses in contrast to the NT verses seemed right to you except for Romans 8:13?

 

[redleghunter]

It was not their works that condemned them, it was their sins which they tried to hide by showing to the Lord their good works instead. God said depart from me you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

They appealed to their works.

 

[Oldmantook]

What I offered is verse 13 is not in a microcosm.

Yes, but you did not directly address the text itself. In forming doctrine one cannot afford to ignore scriptures that don't happen to conform to one's beliefs as Scripture does not contradict itself. In my initial reply to you, I directly addressed each of the verses you cited and offered by explanation.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes we can grieve and quench the Holy Spirit as Paul notes. However, the fruit comes from the Vine which is Christ Jesus. If there is no fruit, then they are not of the Vine.

No, to be specific, the fruit come from the BRANCHES which are attached to the vine. We are the branches. The branches bear the fruit. Unfruitful branches are cut off FROM THE VINE and thrown into the fire and burned.