IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

[Albion]

Hmm....don't know about that. Warnings are facts. If they were not facts concerning the consequences regarding doing something or not doing something then why warn in the first place?

What I was saying was that the verse is just fact, not a warning that if you do something rather than something else the following will happen to you.

 

[redleghunter]

Only believers can be branches as non-believers are never attached to the vine. Believers can either produce fruit or not produce fruit each with its attendant consequences.

That’s your assumption based on what I do not know. I already showed you there were people continually attaching themselves to Jesus in the Gospels. Judas was attached to Jesus, but Judas betrayed Him. People followed Jesus and in the Bread of Life discourse left Him. Jesus stated when the 12 remained that He chose them even though one was a devil meaning Judas.

So there were plenty of branches attached to the Vine. In John 15 we find out only the ones He chose will have fruit and keep it.

What is the context, scope and setting to the True Vine discourse? Did Jesus just out of the blue start a dialogue with the remaining 11 disciples? What happened just before He started this discussion? Did not Judas just leave after Jesus told all at the table that one would betray Him. Then Judas departs (Chapter 13) then Jesus begins His dialogues with the 11.

Jesus after Judas leaves teaches the following:

Chapter 13:
Love One Another
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

Chapter 14:
In My Father’s House are Many Rooms
The Way, the Truth, and the Life
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
Peace I Leave with You

Then they get up and leave heading to Gethsemane.

Then the True Vine. Jesus based on the setting, context and scope of the conversation is comparing absent Judas to the remaining 11 disciples. Judas is the branch who did not produce fruit. The 11 are confirmed to be abiding in Christ and producing fruit.

Now was Judas “saved” and then lost his salvation? That seems to be the pertinent and contextual question based on a discussion on loss of salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

Again you failed to address the text directly. Why is that? A believer is of the devil if he/she makes a practice of sin. 1 John 3:8 Ignore it if you will.

There’s nothing to ignore other than once again the text you provide in no way provides evidence John speaks of a believer. In fact his entire epistle is a comparison of what a true disciple looks like and what a non believer looks like.

 

[redleghunter]

Yahuweh set conditions, being ignored by most people,
and Ephesians and every other Scripture agrees fully and in perfect harmony,
without any contradiction.

What is being ignored is the context, scope and setting of the laundry list of verses presented here.

When one claims a condition on the free gift of God, they have some precondition in mind which is absent in the text.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What is being ignored is the context, scope and setting of the laundry list of verses presented here.

When one claims a condition on the free gift of God, they have some precondition in mind which is absent in the text.

OR, the false teaching is accepted as truth, then all Scripture must be twisted to accommodate the false teaching as if the lie is the truth, knowing neither the Scripture nor the power of God.

 

[1am3laine]

Salvation is like a contract with conditions.
Many mega churches have made GOD seem TOO nice by talking about unconditional love which is NOT true.

You able to be forgiven as long as you don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
(Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-30, Luke 12:8-10)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi LoveGodsWord, for clarity's sake, what's the difference between walking in OBEDIENCE to God's LAW and choosing to FOLLOW His WORD?

Thanks!

--David

Goodness sorry David I am so far behind in this thread. Obedience is the fruit of believing God's Word and what it means to follow His Word.

God bless

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is the restoration of our relationship with the Father through the work of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. In order to receive the restoration, one must believe that God came in the flesh to accomplish the gift of restoration. From there, it is in the hands of the Holy Spirit that will change the old man into the new. Making him worthy to stand in front of the Father with our Advocate Jesus Christ of Nazareth. LOVE is the way through repentance.
Blessings

Thanks Maria for sharing your thoughts with us.

God bless

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is a topic that sits on a sea saw, there is a balance in the middle. If you go the side of saying The Law justifies you, then that is wrong. If you go the side of saying only faith with no obedience saves you (i.e. you can do what you want with no consequence) that is wrong too.

I don't have the time to look up all the scriptures, so I will just paraphrase.

a) A person is saved while they have faith in Jesus death and resurrection to pay for their sins. That is saving faith. Apart from works of the law. No one can obey the law, or the Holy Spirit to the level Jesus did, no one can save themselves, only faith saves.
b) A person who refuses to obey Jesus however is on shaky ground, because sin has a blinding effect, sin covers our eyes so to speak, to the point that a person who enjoys their sin, with an unrepentant heart, will become blind to the truth, and may well stop believing. This is a principal in God's word, and should spur us on to good deeds.

Hello brother FutureandHope nice to meet you. No one is saying we are saved by anything that we can do. We are saved only by God's grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. The OP simply looks at the scriptural warnings showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

God bless

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I can imagine two types of Jews on the Passover night in Egypt.

Some put their trust in the lamb blood, and just relax and enjoy the night, confident that it is sufficient.

Other Jews are more paranoid and try to help the blood with their works, praying fasting singing non stop to God.

In the end both houses first born are still saved because the blood at their doorpost is sufficient.

That is how I view this never ending argument about faith alone or faith and works for salvation.

This is a false argument that is not applicable here as no one believes we can be saved by anything that we can do except by believing in the blood of JESUS shed at calvery for our sins. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

 

[Guojing]

This is a false argument that is not applicable here as no one believes we can be saved by anything that we can do except by believing in the blood of JESUS shed at calvery for our sins. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

Yes but during that scenario, Jesus has not come yet so they can only put their faith in what God revealed to them.

God told them to put the blood of the lamb on their doors. And the way they put it clearly should remind all about the cross and Jesus sacrifice for us now, but that is not the main point here.

The point I am asking is, once they follow those instructions, can they relax and rest in their home without doing anything else, and will their first born be still protected? What do you think?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Romans 8:13 is a particularly instructive verse. In the Greek, this verse constitutes as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is also true (you will spiritually die). It is an IF-Then statement. Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis then is you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death.

Verse 14 which follows, affirms that those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. This actually mirrors the second clause in v.13 that those who live according to the Spirit, will live. If believers choose to live according the spirit, they will live (v.13) and be sons of God because they are led of the Spirit (v.14).

The word "led" in v.14 is a present tense Greek verb. Thus all who are being led are sons of God. One must continue to led by the Spirit in order to be a son of God. If one ceases to be led either through no longer believing or no longer following the Spirit; i.e. disobedience, then one is no longer assured of being a son of God.

Verse 15 states that we have not received a spirit of slavery which leads to fear but instead a spirit of adoption. Contrast this with the unbeliever who only has a spirit of slavery and can only choose to sin because he has not yet been regenerated. Because we have been adopted, we can now choose whether to be slaves to sin or slaves to the Spirit.
Again in verse 16, one must pay attention to the verb tense. The word symmartyrei translated as testifies, bears witness, confirms is also a present tense verb. It describes a present state of ongoing action whereby the Spirit is testifying, is bearing witness, is confirming that we are sons of God. The Greek present tense does not state or even imply that we will remain sons of God in the future. Only at the present, we are continuing to be sons of God. Notice that v.17 does however refer to the future. It states that we are fellow heirs and may also be glorified with him - IF WE SUFFER WITH HIM. Our being glorified is conditional.

Hi brother Oldmantook,

Some may have missed this as it is a little long for some (like mine). I have only just read this now and think it is well written and a there is a lot of truth in it (especially the section I am quoting from above). I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this.

It is interesting to note that there are many scriptures in the bible in both the OLD and NEW Testament that follow this same writing style "IF THEN" present tense application being condtional particle in the present tense.

God bless and thanks for sharing this. I enjoyed reading this today

Edit: Sorry to many threads

 

[Oldmantook]

I’ve addressed the text several times. Each time you change the text.

That is because multiple scriptures directly contradict your held doctrine. In order to formulate doctrine all of Scripture must somehow be reconciled with your view lest there be holes in your doctrine.

 

[Oldmantook]

The text of Ephesians 1 does not set conditions and why you add to the text.

What does Ephesians 1 have anything to do with James 5:19-20? You avoid dealing with the text directly in order to cling to your belief but that is your prerogative.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What’s interesting with the “Lord, Lord” quote is how they tried to justify themselves to be righteous:

I think also the problem was that these thought they were saved but were not because they had a form of Godliness but denied God's power to save them from their sins. Notice also the prior warning about entering into the strait gate and the warnings about false teachers *MATTHEW 7:12-13 (cause and effect)...

MATTHEW 7:22-23 [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (SIN).

This is a warning for all of us today to turn away from following man made teachings and traditions and to seek God through his Word alone that he may be our guide and teacher *JOHN 14:26; HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 8:31-36.

 

[Oldmantook]

I

What I was saying was that the verse is just fact, not a warning that if you do something rather than something else the following will happen to you.

Warnings ARE FACTS. If they were not factual, there would be no need to heed them. Moreover, the Greek 1st class condition grammatical construction bolsters the fact that Rom 8:13 is a warning. You choose to ignore and minimize this - which is your prerogative. If you or I live our lives according to the flesh, we will spiritually die.

 

[Albion]

Warnings ARE FACTS. If they were not factual, there would be no need to heed them.

I will try again. Is there any difference between these two statements:

"After Summer will come Autumn."

"If you don't change your clothes, you will stink."

They both deal with facts.

 

[Oldmantook]

That’s your assumption based on what I do not know. I already showed you there were people continually attaching themselves to Jesus in the Gospels. Judas was attached to Jesus, but Judas betrayed Him. People followed Jesus and in the Bread of Life discourse left Him. Jesus stated when the 12 remained that He chose them even though one was a devil meaning Judas.

So there were plenty of branches attached to the Vine. In John 15 we find out only the ones He chose will have fruit and keep it.

What is the context, scope and setting to the True Vine discourse? Did Jesus just out of the blue start a dialogue with the remaining 11 disciples? What happened just before He started this discussion? Did not Judas just leave after Jesus told all at the table that one would betray Him. Then Judas departs (Chapter 13) then Jesus begins His dialogues with the 11.

Jesus after Judas leaves teaches the following:

Chapter 13:
Love One Another
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

Chapter 14:
In My Father’s House are Many Rooms
The Way, the Truth, and the Life
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
Peace I Leave with You

Then they get up and leave heading to Gethsemane.

Then the True Vine. Jesus based on the setting, context and scope of the conversation is comparing absent Judas to the remaining 11 disciples. Judas is the branch who did not produce fruit. The 11 are confirmed to be abiding in Christ and producing fruit.

Now was Judas “saved” and then lost his salvation? That seems to be the pertinent and contextual question based on a discussion on loss of salvation.

I suggest you carefully read John 17 6:12. You will find that Judas was no different from the rest of the disciples. Judas and the others were GIVEN to Jesus by the Father. Jesus kept them in thy name. None was lost except for Judas because of his betrayal. One cannot betray someone else if they were not initially faithful in the first place. The Father is the one who elects and gives them to the Son. Unbelievers are never said to be of the elect. Therefore since Judas was given by the Father to Jesus, he was at one time saved/elected but lost his salvation because he was a thief and ultimately betrayed the Lord. Judas was attached to the vine, did not bear fruit because of his actions, was cut off and thrown into the fire.

 

[Oldmantook]

I will try again. Is there any difference between these two statements:

"After Summer will come Autumn."

"If you don't change your clothes, you will stink."

They both deal with facts.

Of course they deal with facts. The problem as I see it with your explanation is that some facts are rather innocuous and some facts have potentially tragic consequences. I could easily say if you don't change your gasoline drenched clothes before lighting that match to smoke your cigarette, you will get burned or even die.
You have chosen to ignore the spiritual consequences of what happens to believers if they choose to live their lives according to the flesh. Do you deny this statement of fact?

 

[Albion]

Of course they deal with facts. The problem as I see it with your explanation is that some facts are rather innocuous and some facts have potentially tragic consequences.

Now, take that thought and read through the earlier posts in our discussion.