Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

[Gregory Thompson]

This is ripping the verse out of its context. Try reading at verse 37 on down. You will notice that Jesus is also condemning their man made traditions. Jesus also calls them hypocrites. Nothing is stated here about how their obedience to God's laws as a part of salvation is condemned here. Jesus actually agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17-19).

Luke 16:16

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This implies that Christians who are born again by the Holy Spirit can be not saved based on sins committed while in this body.

The passage that comes to mind is the following.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

If the writer of this post is concerned about sinning, they may wish to repent for placing a number of people God has redeemed in the hell of their mind.

Very similar to in the Old Testament when false testimony is brought up to punish the innocent: The person who gave false testimony is then given the punishment that would have been given to the victim of said false testimony.

So in this way, how you judge others, and measure them, this will also be measured back to you and you will be judged in the same way. This is written out of concern due to the parable of the unmerciful servant who had his debt forgiven but would not forgive debts of others.

Heed the teachings of Christ, and do not increase your burden unnecessarily.

Well, if I am abiding in unconfessed grievous sin and I am telling others to not do those sins, then I would be hypocritical and I would be condemned. If I do not hold to my own standard, there is no point to even speak here. I would be wasting my time.

But if things are as the Eternal Security Proponent says or if things are as the "Sin and Still Be Saved" type believer says, then what I do really does not matter because I am saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. I already have a belief alone on Jesus as my Savior. But I realize that it is more than that. For at the Judgment: Jesus rejected the kind of believer who did good works and yet they also had sinful or evil works (i.e. they worked iniquity) (See: Matthew 7:23). This is what you fail to understand.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This is ripping the verse out of its context. Try reading at verse 37 on down. You will notice that Jesus is also condemning their man made traditions. Jesus also calls them hypocrites. Nothing is stated here about how their obedience to God's laws as a part of salvation is condemned here. Jesus actually agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17-19).

I read from verse 37 to the verse I quoted, context is not ripped, for sure.

When you say, you are not saved unless you obey all the stuff I preach to you, this is laying burdens on people's shoulders, and then going on living your merry life not helping them at all.

It's totally in the context.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Luke 16:16

Just quoting Luke 16:16 with no commentary does not in any way undo what I have said with Scripture. Please explain the verses and points I made. Thanks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I read from verse 37 to the verse I quoted, context is not ripped, for sure.

When you say, you are not saved unless you obey all the stuff I preach to you, this is laying burdens on people's shoulders, and then going on living your merry life not helping them at all.

It's totally in the context.

You are ripping the verse out of context because Jesus is condemning them for:

(a) Man made traditions.
(b) Hypocrisy.​

I am teaching what Jesus is teaching (of which you do not appear to agree with) which is that Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

In Luke 11: Nowhere does Jesus condemn the idea that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Your imagining something in the text here that simply does not exist.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, if I am abiding in unconfessed grievous sin and I am telling others to not do those sins, then I would be hypocritical and I would be condemned. If I do not hold to my own standard, there is no point to even speak here. I would be wasting my time.

But if things are as the Eternal Security Proponent says or if things are as the "Sin and Still Be Saved" type believer says, then what I do really does not matter because I am saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. I already have a belief alone on Jesus as my Savior. But I realize that it is more than that. For at the Judgment: Jesus rejected the kind of believer who did good works and yet they also had sinful or evil works (i.e. they worked iniquity) (See: Matthew 7:23). This is what you fail to understand.

However, to appeal to another scripture location, who are you to judge another's servant? By God they stand.

I never knew you is the main part of that Matthew passage, since there's an indwelling of God with an intimate knowing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Just quoting Luke 16:16 with no commentary does not in any way undo what I have said with Scripture. Please explain the verses and points I made. Thanks.

What you were appealing to "the commandments" related to the transitional period Jesus lived in. It's important to understand, the "law" of the new testament lives within us as born again believers in Jesus Christ. This law of liberty is illustrated in James, and is a connecting point with Paul's teaching on Sin in Romans that speaks of it as a similar living construct.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

However, to appeal to another scripture location, who are you to judge another's servant? By God they stand.

I never knew you is the main part of that Matthew passage, since there's an indwelling of God with an intimate knowing.

Right, and why does the Lord not know them?
It's because they are not keeping His commandments (i.e. they are sinning or committing iniquity). 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. A person needs to abide in Christ to have life. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You are ripping the verse out of context because Jesus is condemning them for:

(a) Man made traditions.
(b) Hypocrisy.​

I am teaching what Jesus is teaching (of which you do not appear to agree with) which is that Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

In Luke 11: Nowhere does Jesus condemn the idea that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Your imagining something in the text here that simply does not exist.

If you're being simple about it, that makes it easy to agree with.

So beyond the golden rule, what else?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Right, and why does the Lord not know them?
It's because they are not keeping His commandments (i.e. they are sinning or committing iniquity). 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. A person needs to abide in Christ to have life. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Here is the part that illustrates a burden being placed on people without you lifting a finger to help.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you were appealing to "the commandments" related to the transitional period Jesus lived in. It's important to understand, the "law" of the new testament lives within us as born again believers in Jesus Christ. This law of liberty is illustrated in James, and is a connecting point with Paul's teaching on Sin in Romans that speaks of it as a similar living construct.

This is simply not true.

First, it doesn't make sense for Jesus to teach us something brand new just so that such a new teaching could quickly undone after the cross.

Second, God would be a respecter of persons if He so radically changed His plan of salvation like that. God's way of salvation was always "God's Grace through Faith + Works of Faith."

Three, the truth of Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:17-19 can be seen in 1 John 3:15. For after the cross, John wrote 1 John 3:15 and said that if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Hating one's brother is the opposite of loving your brother (i.e. loving your neighbor). If no eternal life abides in a person for not loving your brother (i.e. by hating them), then this indeed confirms the very words of Jesus. Paul also says that if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Paul says if anyone does no agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul says a man can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So I am sorry. Things are not as you say.

Four, you did not provide any Scriptural backing or explanation for what you said. You just stated it as if it was fact without any proof from the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you're being simple about it, that makes it easy to agree with.

So beyond the golden rule, what else?

Read my signature (that is at the bottom of each of my posts).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is the part that illustrates a burden being placed on people without you lifting a finger to help.

Sorry, you are not making any sense;
John was preaching a burden in 1 John 2:3-4?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's kind of prideful, isn't it ?

You have heard ALL of the biblical support for any other position than your own ? You don't believe that there is anything new anyone can bring to you on this subject ?

Have you confessed this sin of pride ???

First, we are not supposed to make the topic about the poster (if it is done in a hostile way), but we are to address the context of the topic with Scripture. If not, then one is violation of forum rules.

Second, words can sometimes be imprecise in conveying our fullest thoughts. I was speaking in general that "I have heard it all before" and I am not speaking exhaustively in the fact that it is impossible for me to encounter a new verse or passage used to defend Eternal Security or a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief (I have not heard before).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I tell you what. I'll give you a straight answer here if you give me a straight answer here - When Is The Last Time You Sinned?

We walk by faith and not by sight. If I claimed to live like a saint for months, you would still find fault that I could only walk uprightly for months, and not for the life span of my entire walk with God. If I lived like a saint for years, you could still find fault in saying I can only walk uprightly with God for a few years.

Also, when God forgives sin, He forgives it (as if it does not exist anymore). A believer's past sins are wiped away and forgiven and not to be brought up again because in God's eyes, that sin is gone. So you are attempting to bring condemnation where none exists. But God's grace is also not a license to sin (Jude 1:4). My life is also not the standard. The Bible is the standard of how we are to live. If I perish for not following God's Word, then that is on me and it in no way undoes the truth of God's Word in what it teaches. Something is not true based on a person's life alone. We walk by faith and not by sight.

What you fail to understand is that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living). This includes confessing and forsaking sin (Proverbs 28:13), and not turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

What you fail to understand is that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

What you fail to understand is that the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose of sanctifying and washing us with the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

 

[A_Thinker]

First, we are not supposed to make the topic about the poster (if it is done in a hostile way), but we are to address the context of the topic with Scripture. If not, then one is violation of forum rules.

But ... the relationship between sin and salvation is the topic of your discussion, ... and if you are defending the position that one's sin might invalidate one's salvation, ... I am curious as to how you reconcile that with the sin in your own life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But ... the relationship between sin and salvation is the topic of your discussion, ... and if you are defending the position that one's sin might invalidate one's salvation, ... I am curious as to how you reconcile that with the sin in your own life.

Again, the topic of this thread is about Belief Alone Proponents defending Belief Alone-ism, and not me trying to prove what the Bible actually says in regards to Soteriology. It's a thread where I should not be on the defensive, but it is where you should be on the offensive involving Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief. Show me the verses that proves OSAS or Belief Alone-ism. Make your case. That is what this thread is about.

Oh, and please, no copying of any websites, either.
I want your case to be made by you from your own research by reading the actual Bible itself.

Side Note:

There are ways to overcome grievous sin, but I don't generally share such a thing with folks who do not believe the Bible on how grievous sin can separate us from God because one needs to have a right understanding on God's plan of salvation to begin with. Without this understanding, such knowledge or teaching in God's Word could potentially be mocked by some, or misunderstood by others (to justify a sin and still be saved type belief).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I loaded a handy new app onto my phone that tracks whether I'm saved throughout the day. Today I was saved from 6:10 am to 9:53 am, then again from 1:17 pm to 3:04 pm, ...

We walk by faith and not by sight. Our life is either surrendered by the guidance of God's Word, or it is not. Anyways, the topic of this thread is for a person to make their case that a believer can sin and still be saved or that we are saved by a Belief Alone according to the Bible. If you cannot do that, then you have come to the wrong thread, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason and I have a history of going back and forth on this.

Sorry, I do not see that we have in any way gone back and forth on this topic. I do not believe you have ever truly offered any good counter arguments with Scripture to what I have posted with God's Word. Many times, my points with the Bible go ignored by you, dear sir. That in my opinion is not going back and forth.

Anyways, you are off topic. This thread topic is not about me meeting your conditions to speak on the topic of my own thread. I do not have to agree to your terms. No such terms exist in this thread. The topic of this thread is for you to prove the Belief Alone-ism or a Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief is true according to the Bible. If you are not making such a case in this thread, then you are off topic, friend.

 

[Albion]

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus.

What is this "Popular Christianity" of which you speak?

While I encounter some people, once in a while, who seem to think the way it is being described on this thread, those people are far from typical and they simply misunderstand the teaching of their own churches.

So I have to question whether it is correct to refer to that mindset as either popular or representative of any significant branch of Christianity.