• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Really, what have the liberals done wrong?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It seems there is no group more vilified by the conservatives than the liberals, and as I considered myself a liberal that was a mystery to me, as it is no doubt to many liberals.

Investigation soon revealed a Tower of Babel situation where no term has a unique meaning, and liberal is one such term.

The Liberal Party in England long held as major objectives and finally achieved them of a safety net to ensure no one had to freeze to death or starve as a result of unemployment, sickness or advanced age, basically just a hair left of the true far right.

It appears one current meaning of liberal is progressive and that can mean a wide range of things from moral change to economic.

It appears there is another very different meaning which is really just short for 'neoliberal', and that relates mainly to liberalized trade policies and had supporters in both parties though that is slowly changing.

What does Liberal mean to you?
 

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Back in the 1950s if someone wanted to sell snake oil or some such it was enough to say that it was a new invention and it sold and before that Radon water was all the rage.

As C S Lewis pointed out people would send their children to an experimental school, but if you said you wanted to experiment on them the parents were far less willing.

In terms of progressive people have I think a wiser and more wary attitude now.

Some changes have far reaching ramifications and thoughtful discussion is needed when evaluating the potential side effects of these changes.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
82
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,445.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Over the last several decades a most remarkable thing has happened in the Christian religious life of both Canada and the USA. One group has been singled out for vilification and contempt. Whether this was a deliberate campaign or not, it has been both widely and wildly successful. It has been so successful that a great many people who should know better do not even question its conclusions. Even nonchristian institutions like the media have uncritically accepted this movement. Sadly, it has been dead wrong since the beginning. It has been so wrong that it is evil and yet it remains largely unchallenged. It is the language of fascism and we all should know how that worked out. I am a member of that vilified group and no, I am not a Jew, I am a liberal Christian. It both distresses and angers me that my fellow Christians have allowed this to happen. I am not ashamed of what I am even in the least. I say that because for me it is the only way I can be true to my moral convictions and my integrity as a Christian. I will not tolerate being abused by fellow Christians who blindly accept incendiary rhetoric and even outright lies. This evil campaign is a blot on Christianity and we must all find a way to end it.
 
Upvote 0

pc_76

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2018
1,126
400
33
PA/New York
✟127,062.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The Democratic Party in the United States is no longer liberal and is now progressive. I don't think it's necessarily much the same in the other countries, but our main "liberal" party is the one that most also accepts and even endorses stuff like abortion and acceptance of LGBT which would seem to completely contradict traditional Christian ethos. So one would figure it's a no-brainer in this context that the Republican Party is the one Christians see as the lesser evil.
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Neoliberalism is something else altogether and as I understand it is a very big problem.

Basically although it was implemented by Ronald Reagan, it is now primarily a democrat policy, Hillary was pro TPP for a long time and Donald T has always been anti and understands the amount of damage it has done to Working Class America.
 
Upvote 0

bekkilyn

Contemplative Christian
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2017
7,612
8,476
USA
✟700,228.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
Over the last several decades a most remarkable thing has happened in the Christian religious life of both Canada and the USA. One group has been singled out for vilification and contempt. Whether this was a deliberate campaign or not, it has been both widely and wildly successful. It has been so successful that a great many people who should know better do not even question its conclusions. Even nonchristian institutions like the media have uncritically accepted this movement. Sadly, it has been dead wrong since the beginning. It has been so wrong that it is evil and yet it remains largely unchallenged. It is the language of fascism and we all should know how that worked out. I am a member of that vilified group and no, I am not a Jew, I am a liberal Christian. It both distresses and angers me that my fellow Christians have allowed this to happen. I am not ashamed of what I am even in the least. I say that because for me it is the only way I can be true to my moral convictions and my integrity as a Christian. I will not tolerate being abused by fellow Christians who blindly accept incendiary rhetoric and even outright lies. This evil campaign is a blot on Christianity and we must all find a way to end it.

1 Timothy 4:1 seems applicable, or maybe 2 Timothy 4:3-4. They are so convinced that they are the "true" Christians and everyone else is wrong, but perhaps Satan has been deceiving them all along. After all, the fruits being produced by this group's movement are practically rotten to the core, and that should be a pretty big hint right there.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The Progressives a hundred years ago were a reaction to the changes taking place in society and an attempt to put things back into working order, not an initiative to make social change, or to do social engineering.

Prior to the large corporations the mines and retail stores and such were owned by individuals or partnerships and did not control the government. But joining many of these together under one owner gave that owner a lot of money and a lot of power, enough to control Congress which 100 years later still remains the biggest problem in American government.

The_Bosses_of_the_Senate_by_Joseph_Keppler.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
11,766
11,196
USA
✟1,028,314.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What modern liberalism to me is a communist/socialist party that stands against our freedoms and is trying to take over government so we don't have a choice but to enter their form of slavery.

Our children will never know freedom unless we stand now against this move to socialism/communism control of this country.

You asked. That's my opinion.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
82
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,445.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
1 Timothy 4:1 seems applicable, or maybe 2 Timothy 4:3-4. They are so convinced that they are the "true" Christians and everyone else is wrong, but perhaps Satan has been deceiving them all along. After all, the fruits being produced by this group's movement are practically rotten to the core, and that should be a pretty big hint right there.

Who exactly are "they"? If you are speaking of liberals then let me say a few words about myself. I have been a Christian for over 75 years and am retired from a career as a scientist, mathematician and educator. I was raised as what I would call a fundamentalist Catholic but I have always had a skeptical mindset and became a searcher. If I had not found liberal/progressive Christianity, I likely would not remain a Christian today. I am what I am today because it is the only way for me to maintain my moral, spiritual and intellectual integrity. I am still not convinced that I am a "true Christian" but I continue to look forward to meeting one.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
8,753
4,672
✟352,803.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I think of two ideas of the liberal. The liberal, individual freedom, nearly libertarian but not quite. They seem more reasonable to me. Left and Right can belong to this category.

The other idea I identify with the left or progressives and that definition of liberal seems to be the defense or preference of anything depraved, immoral and contrary to nature.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: charsan
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
82
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,445.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
What modern liberalism to me is a communist/socialist party that stands against our freedoms and is trying to take over government so we don't have a choice but to enter their form of slavery.

Our children will never know freedom unless we stand now against this move to socialism/communism control of this country.

You asked. That's my opinion.

I believe that you have a misinformed and very flawed opinion.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
82
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,445.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
"Unfortunately, many people in our society, pharisaically tied to their own religious customs and laws, have yet to recognize the debt that they owe to liberals. Had there been no liberals, we would be living in a radically different social, political, and religious environment. For one thing, if Jesus had not been a liberal who was willing to try new ideas rather than to live slavishly bound to old religious customs and traditions, there would be no Christianity that so many conservatives in our society consider to be primarily important in their lives. The next time a preacher or a politician labels someone a "liberal," ask yourself why that within itself should be any reason to hold him/her in disdain. Keep in mind a logical axiom that recognizes that the truth or falsity of propositions is always independent of its source, so it is entirely possible that an idea proposed by a liberal just might be worthy of your consideration. Indeed, history has taught us that the ideas of liberals have been the driving force that led us out of caves into the society that we now enjoy, and whatever progress awaits mankind in the future will come to us through the efforts of liberals who will dare to buck the status quo and consider new ideas. Knowing that should be enough to encourage you to listen to what that a liberal has to say." ~~~ Farrell Till

"I do not consider a liberal necessarily to be a leftist. A liberal to me is one who--and it suits some of the dictionary definitions--is unbeholden to any specific belief or party or group or person, but makes up his or her mind on the basis of the facts and the presentation of those facts at the time. That defines what I am. I have never voted a party line. I vote on the individual and the issues." ~~~ Walter Cronkite

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?"... But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I’m proud to say I’m a "Liberal." ~~~ President John F. Kennedy

"Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that he defied hated and crucified him. They examined his life and did not like what they saw. He aligned himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of his day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of his day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to himself. Jesus was the original liberal. He was a progressive, and he was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that he rebuked and he called them hypocrites." ~~~ Gary Vance

"However, for most of the past 1700 years Christianity has been the 'established religion', the religion of those who are in control --- the rich and the powerful. This means quite simply that Christianity to a very great extent has been understood and/or interpreted to serve the purpose of their own percieved entitlement. That is to say, their Jesus has become conservative. I do not believe the Jesus of history would have been in any way comfortable with that --- he was more of a liberation theologist." ~~~ Giles Fraser
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think of two ideas of the liberal. The liberal, individual freedom, nearly libertarian but not quite. They seem more reasonable to me. Left and Right can belong to this category.

The other idea I identify with the left or progressives and that definition of liberal seems to be the defense or preference of anything depraved, immoral and contrary to nature.

This is what I sometimes call 'the Tower of Babel', so many terms have so many different meanings, and some people take things to their logical conclusions and others don't and often a system is constrained and never will get to the logical conclusion and if things go badly wrong people vote with their feet, like me leaving neoliberal England 5 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

seeking.IAM

A View From The Pew
Site Supporter
Feb 29, 2004
4,815
5,539
Indiana
✟1,126,792.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
...our main "liberal" party is the one that most also accepts and even endorses stuff like...acceptance of LGBT which would seem to completely contradict traditional Christian ethos...

This thread is about politics, not Christian ethos. I'd argue that equal protection under the law; life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; and "all men are created equal" are not liberal political ideals regardless of what one thinks about LGBT in the light of Christian ethos.

... the Republican Party is the one Christians see as the lesser evil.

Speak for yourself. The Republican Party is one SOME Christians see as the lesser evil. Others see it quite the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I sure didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, just the opposite in fact, that people would understand that far too many arguments are based on different understandings of the terms involved.

About the left - right spectrum I consider one factor is the amount of wealth a country has above the amount needed to survive on. Very close to the survival line and there is a strong case for dividing things more evenly, a country far above the survival level has, more options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JackRT
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟265,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It appears in the US Liberal often means heading towards socialism, but equally it can mean individual freedom from government control and is therefore small government and therefore on the right.

I'll remember in future to find out which one a person means before banging them on the head with a 2x4 - actually I'm more interested in how people think than in their conclusions.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.