The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Saint Steven]

@FineLinen On occasion I have imagined that in heaven every day is Christmas.

I mean the sort of Christmas day that a five to ten year old might have.
The anticipation, the excitement, the "magic", if you will, that accompanies the day.
None of the hustle and bustle or anxiety that we might associate with a "bad" Christmas.

The specialness of the day. The warmth of togetherness, the festive decorations and dress, the gifts under the tree (if you go for that sort of thing), the smells of delicious food, the sound of laughter and greetings, hugs from relatives and reunions with cousins. The wonder and awe of the day.

Hard to say what it would really be like, or if I would really want to wake up every day to a Christmas celebration. It loses it's specialness when it becomes routine. One might want more, or something else instead of Christmas every day.

What's your take?

 

[Wrangler]

REASON #3: Unending punishment is inconsistent with an all-loving, all-merciful God.

As a father, no one would think I am a loving father if I punished my daughter for falling after taking her first steps (of making choices) unendingly.

I look at spirits to be akin to a gas, with God being a pure gas. Furthermore, we yearn to be with God but our sin, our impurity, keeps us from reaching the heights. Although we hold on to that sin, eventually, we yield, let go and join our Father, our God.

And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NLT)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12

 

[Wrangler]

REASON #4: We are not saved by our fickle faith but by God’s faithfulness!

One thing that disgusts me is Christians supposing the power of our puny faith saves us. Larry Richards in The Full Armor of Godsays it is God’s faithfulness that is our salvation. I fully agree.

all of which is good and acceptable before the eyes of God our Savior who desires for everyone to be saved and know the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (VOICE)

From Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose. God saves all.
Look at it this way: through Adam all of us die, but through the Anointed One all of us can live again.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (VOICE)

God was pleased that all His fullness should forever dwell in the Son 20 who, as predetermined by God, bled peace into the world by His death on the cross as God’s means of reconciling to Himself the whole creation—all things in heaven and all things on earth.
Colossians 1:19-20 (VOICE)

So here is the result: as one man’s sin brought about condemnation and punishment for all people, so one man’s act of faithfulness makes all of us right with God and brings us to new life.
Romans 5:18 (VOICE)

For God has assigned all of us together—Jews and non-Jews, insiders and outsiders—to disobedience so He can show His mercy to all.
Romans 11:32 (VOICE)

 

[Saint Steven]

REASON #4: We are not saved by our fickle faith by God’s faithfulness!

Did you mean "We are not saved by our fickle faith" BUT "by our fickle faith by God’s faithfulness!"?

 

[FineLinen]

The verse of today from the Master of Reconciliation=

Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

2019 version=

"Do not try and teach a pig to sing, you will waste your time & you will annoy the pig."

Pigs are actually considered the fifth-most intelligent animal in the world—even more intelligent than dogs—and are capable of playing video games with more focus and success than chimps! They also have excellent object-location memory. If they find grub in one spot, they'll remember to look there next time.

BUT:

You will waste your time if you try to teach them how to sing!

What are the smartest animals in the world and how do we know?

 

[Wrangler]

Did you mean "We are not saved by our fickle faith" BUT "by our fickle faith by God’s faithfulness!"?

Yes, I corrected my post.

 

[Saint Steven]

REASON #3: Unending punishment is inconsistent with an all-loving, all-merciful God.

As a father, no one would think I am a loving father if I punished my daughter for falling after taking her first steps (of making choices) unendingly.

I look at spirits to be akin to a gas, with God being a pure gas. Furthermore, we yearn to be with God but our sin, our impurity, keeps us from reaching the heights. Although we hold on to that sin, eventually, we yield, let go and join our Father, our God.

And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NLT)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12

Okay. I understand, thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

The verse of today from the Master of Reconciliation=

Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

2019 version=

"Do not try and teach a pig to sing, you will waste your time & you will annoy the pig."

Pigs are actually considered the fifth-most intelligent animal in the world—even more intelligent than dogs—and are capable of playing video games with more focus and success than chimps! They also have excellent object-location memory. If they find grub in one spot, they'll remember to look there next time.

BUT:

You will waste your time if you try to teach them how to sing!

What are the smartest animals in the world and how do we know?

Are you rebuking @Wrangler for helping me?

 

[Saint Steven]

REASON #4: We are not saved by our fickle faith but by God’s faithfulness!

One thing that disgusts me is Christians supposing the power of our puny faith saves us. Larry Richards in The Full Armor of Godsays it is God’s faithfulness that is our salvation. I fully agree.

all of which is good and acceptable before the eyes of God our Savior who desires for everyone to be saved and know the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (VOICE)

From Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose. God saves all.
Look at it this way: through Adam all of us die, but through the Anointed One all of us can live again.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (VOICE)

God was pleased that all His fullness should forever dwell in the Son 20 who, as predetermined by God, bled peace into the world by His death on the cross as God’s means of reconciling to Himself the whole creation—all things in heaven and all things on earth.
Colossians 1:19-20 (VOICE)

So here is the result: as one man’s sin brought about condemnation and punishment for all people, so one man’s act of faithfulness makes all of us right with God and brings us to new life.
Romans 5:18 (VOICE)

For God has assigned all of us together—Jews and non-Jews, insiders and outsiders—to disobedience so He can show His mercy to all.
Romans 11:32 (VOICE)

Okay. I understand. Thanks.

It seems that this point may be shared be those outside of Universalism.
So, I question whether it belongs. But maybe you have a good reason for it being here.
I guess the salvation by "God’s faithfulness" part is different.

I certainly don't believe that we are saved by OUR OWN faith.
By GRACE we have been saved THROUGH FAITH, this is NOT of OURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God. (so none can boast)

Here's what we have so far. Does that cover it? (list below)
Do you want to revise any of these? Add more points? (one or two)
Or is this your best four? You're done?
(reason #1 isn't really a statement)
(reasons #2 and #3 may be redundant)

REASON #1: Universal Restoration

REASON #2: Universalists truly believe in an all-merciful God.

REASON #3: Unending punishment is inconsistent with an all-loving, all-merciful God.

REASON #4: We are not saved by our fickle faith but by God’s faithfulness!

 

[Wrangler]

Or is this your best four? You're done?

We were finally having such a good exchange too.

I would really like four or five reasons why people believe in Universalism.

I give you EXACTLY what you ask for and you imply it is STILL not good enough.

I gave 4 reasons as requested. You ask if those are the best reasons and am I done. Although you invite put downs, I'll try to say no to the invitation ... I gave 4 reasons that would be easy enough and irrefutable enough for you to grasp. Are you done attacking a faith you don't believe in or share?

Please don't make me regret catering to your requests. I think it's best that you just move on to another thread.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think it's best that you just move on to another thread.

That's another express train to an involuntary vacation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I give you EXACTLY what you ask for and you imply it is STILL not good enough.

I gave 4 reasons as requested. You ask if those are the best reasons and am I done. Although you invite put downs, I'll try to say no to the invitation ... I gave 4 reasons that would be easy enough and irrefutable enough for you to grasp. Are you done attacking a faith you don't believe in or share?

You are very easily offended.
I asked for four or five points. You gave four points. Is there a fifth point?
Seems like a reasonable question.

I noticed that #1 is not a statement. Would you like to make it one?
If not, no big deal. You're done.

I noticed points #2 and #3 seem redundant. Okay as is?
If so, no big deal. You're done.

Are these your final answers? If so, you're done. No big deal.

Do you have regrets? Your call. No big deal.

Am I leaving? My call. When I am good and ready. And not before.

 

[Saint Steven]

Are you done attacking a faith you don't believe in or share?

This topic was launched under the General Theology section titled: Controversial Christian Theology.

It seems unreasonable that you would think this is a protected area. It is not. I am free to debate the topic if I wish.

 

[Saint Steven]

I gave 4 reasons that would be easy enough and irrefutable enough for you to grasp.

Did you say "irrefutable"?
And then ask if I am done attacking? (some nerve)

 

[Saint Steven]

Although you invite put downs, I'll try to say no to the invitation

I'll be happy to let you take responsibility for your own behavior.
Don't blame your put-downs on me. As if I "invited" them.

 

[Wrangler]

. I am free to debate the topic if I wish.

You are not debating the topic. All you are doing is repeatedly Appeal to Ignorance, claiming you do not understand AS IF that is an argument in support of the alternative.

 

[Saint Steven]

You are not debating the topic. All you are doing is repeatedly Appeal to Ignorance, claiming you do not understand AS IF that is an argument in support of the alternative.

That was before your four (three?) points. (two, really)
Now I am armed and dangerous. (thanks) - lol

 

[FineLinen]

Yeah that's fine for State law though, but Jesus tells us that His people (the Church) ought to turn the other cheek, etc.

The question is why God does not do the same. The answer is He did - on the cross. But what kind of victory did that win?

On the cross, Jesus was the victor over Satan, sin, and death, right? (Some say even the victor over the Law.)

I'll tell you what made me consider Universalism. It was when I was lying in bed in fear one night about whether my two kids would be saved, and if they did not accept Jesus, how they would go to hell - either to be annihilated or for eternal torment. I began to realise that this meant that death still has a sting over me as a believer. It's all fair and well that I go to heaven, but those I love might not, and so for all eternity death still has a last word over me, even a believer.

But I realised that the Bible tells me death does not have the last word, and does not even have a sting any more. It tells me that love conquers all. It tells me that Jesus's victory over death was real and complete, not half done. So therefore, the only reasonable explanation for this is to realise that God won't ever let death have the last word, just like He says, and even death is not enough to separate Him from those He loves. And if I love the unsaved, which I do, surely He does too? The only possible explanation for hell under all this is it is part of His salvation plan. And there for, reluctantly, I realised I could not believe the entire Bible unless I actually accepted some sort of Universalist position.

Hope that makes sense. It seems to me under all the other models, death still wins, even over a believer, who must see their loved ones die forever.

The Problem

Picture yourself as a missionary to the Muslim nation of Senegal, West Africa. The date? September 26, 2002.

About a year prior, you befriended your neighbor, Abdou Ndieye, a Muslim merchant. Only a few weeks ago, he graciously accepted your invitation to study the Bible with you. You are thrilled. Abdou is the first Muslim with whom you have begun sharing the Good News. Today you prepare to explore another portion of God‘s Word with him, but something terrible has happened. You cannot believe what you are hearing and seeing on the news. The Joola, a Senegalese ferry, has capsized killing almost 2,000 people. You remember that Abdou‘s wife, Astou, and his 14 year-old daughter, Fatou, are on that ship. You are in shock and cannot believe what you are seeing—a ship‘s underside sticking up out of the sea with helicopters hovering overhead. You hurry next door. As you knock on the door, you hear deep groans and wailing. You slowly enter. Abdou is prostrate on the floor. He pleads before Yalla (Wolof for Allah), “Why? Why? How could you let this happen?” He goes into spasms of weeping, beating his hands against the floor. Feeling utterly helpless, you pray, “God help me comfort my friend.” Abdou lifts his eyes, hardly able to recognize you for the tears. “My wife and daughter have died a terrible death! Tell me I will see them again; tell me they are safe in God‘s arms! Has your Jesus taken them to His heaven?” You are lost for words. The silence is deafening. “Answer me, Christian, will I see them again? Are they in a better place? Tell me!” You remain speechless. What can you say? Where is the Good News when you need it most?

The Good News

https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

 

[FineLinen]

“He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.”

The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

 

[FineLinen]

Good grief Gup! All thanatos ends in the One who swallows it. Every last stinking bit of it ends in the One who makes all things new. The ending is the beginning, the beginning is the ending. Yup, the Lord of ta panta prevails!

Dear Gup:

The Lord of Glory is the Alpha & Omega, the first and last!

Make zero mistake. He is the ta pavnte!

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.