The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[GTW27]

Dear HatGuy: I trust the wading process is not wearing you out. I arose today to a wonderful word from the One who makes all things new. It summarizes all 150+ pages in one verse>>>>>

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole."

Blessings to you Fine Linen! It is The Spirit that bares witness to The Spirit. The Lord is Perfect in all His ways. So that you may know, when He speaks, His Words are Perfect and flows like a river. The Lord is also just in all His ways. When He returns, and return He will, He is bringing His rewards with Him. The words you said you received this morning, are not from the One who gives you the night and day, and The Perfect balance of all things. In a nutshell, you have been duped.

 

[FineLinen]

Blessings to you Fine Linen! It is The Spirit that bares witness to The Spirit. The Lord is Perfect in all His ways. So that you may know, when He speaks, His Words are Perfect and flows like a river. The Lord is also just in all His ways. When He returns, and return He will, He is bringing His rewards with Him. The words you said you received this morning, are not from the One who gives you the night and day, and The Perfect balance of all things. In a nutshell, you have been duped.

Dear GTW: The walk in the Holy is a dangerous journey. With each aspect of the trek of Spirit, the Father is bringing us to the end of ourselves into living not by our faith, but rather, "the faith of the Son of God". For F.L. the journey began over 62 years ago. At this final chapter of my life, my eyes must become sharper, and my ears hear the Hum of the Father. Thank you for the blessings, I need every last one of them.

“It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply.” - A.W. Tozer-

 

[Hillsage]

Yes. I'm torn.
Which may be part of the reason for my "bad" behavior. Though not an excuse.

I had not studied into Universalism prior to coming on the topic. And resonated more with the opponents than the proponents. And even tried to call the opponents back to the discussion. No takers. "Where are they?" is a good question. Some may be off the forum, by who's doing I'm not certain. I'm guessing the majority has given up on trying to communicate with the topic originator. Who IMHO is doing a disservice to the subject.

I expect resonance equal to one's pre-indoctirnated past. But I don't expect 'religious spirited' challenges from one who is truly trying to UNDERSTAND a new and opposing view. If you're just going to defend where you're at the Holy Spirit isn't going to move. If you're seeking the truth, no matter where it leads, He will.

And as I have said all along, I hope you guys are right, but I am not yet convinced enough, nor knowledgeable enough, to say I'm all in.

The tenor of your posts just don't live up to either being "convinced enough" or "knowledgeable enough". They support 'not at all' much better. Hence the 'thinking more highly of them-self' judgments that you're just an unworthy swine, instead of one who's mind has been taken captive by the enemy theologically...IMO as an 'all in' UR/UNI believer.

I have been doing some study to work through it. I went back to the beginning of the topic yesterday to see what I may have missed. I found broken links on two of them but one interesting topic that worked. Some good points are made. But I still see biblical evidence for all three positions. Being split three ways leaves me with no cohesive argument on all this. Torn, as I said. Like with any renovation project, demolition comes before rebuilding.

You aren't a genius who's the only one to see THREE, even as religious history has proven. But you don't need to study THREE now, your plate overflows with this ONE. All three are elephants 'in and of' themselves. And forget the thread's beginning, I agree that even I don't follow 'way too much' here. Always wonderiing about those even 'less able' than me. Just go through Preston's whole Savior of the World series first. Then you will at least have a glimpse of the bigger view of the ONE elephant we're here for. And Preston will support, with hundreds of scriptures, as you have already noted just reading the "JUDGMENT". A chapter which, when I last asked, you still hadn't finished. Have you yet?

I would like to read more into the claim that the early church was primarily Universalist. There must be some info in the writings of the early church. Which unfortunately puts us outside the canon of scripture. But I can understand how the RCC may have intentionally rejected some of those writings. Although in general I tens to agree with their choices. The uncanonized writings of the early church are not at the same level as the canon.

I quoted the proof supported by someone 'who did do the work', and who wasn't even a professed UR/UNI preacher. He was just someone reporting the historical facts for a religious encyclopedia. 'Facts' which were quoted by me. Facts, which you said you can't confirm. I agree, that's why years ago I did a search on HIM and his other reputable religious works and reputation with ORTHODOXY for crying out loud...HELLLLL-O. That's why I do quote him a lot. He passed my test. And you know what? NOT ONE 'TECHNO CHRISTIAN WIZARD' ETERNAL HELL-ER HERE, HAS EVER REFUTED HIS QUOTE OR HIS REPUTATION.

Sorry, I'm talking your ear off this morning. The fresh coffee is good. - lol

Then make it worth my while. Because I'm not getting support from anyone here to keep working with you Steve. And I don't blame them. But neither do I agree with our newby 'fellow Charismatic' brother's self appraisial FRUIT INSPECTION attitude either. And his waffling answers 'to me' simply confirm my judgment as being 'more' correct. So, YES, answer my questions when I ask, even if family is gone.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Steve...God has stated here and there that He has not given all men to understand IN THIS AGE. With that said, I believe that if you keep knocking, God will open the door to your understanding. I should mention here that I am an ex-athiest, and God made Himself real to me when my father, who had been praying for me for years, got himself in line with his understanding of what he knew God wanted of him. The veil between you and God will go away in time, if not in this age, then in the one(s) to come.

 

[Saint Steven]

Universalists are only half right (but that makes them half wrong). Resurrection is universal, but Salvation is not. In fact, there will be a universal resurrection, and that will be followed by a second judgment. Unlike Adam's universal, corporate judgement, the Great White Throne judgement will be an individual judgment.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

That Daniel passage is interesting.
Now we have a Hebrew word for "everlasting" to throw in the mix.
Any chance it could mean "age-during" instead of everlasting?

 

[Saint Steven]

And Preston will support, with hundreds of scriptures, as you have already noted just reading the "JUDGMENT". A chapter which, when I last asked, you still hadn't finished. Have you yet?

I am very close to finished, but need to get back to it to finish up. Got sidetracked. Thanks for the nudge.

 

[GTW27]

Dear GTW: The walk in the Holy is a dangerous journey. With each aspect of the trek of Spirit, the Father is bringing us to the end of ourselves into living not by our faith, but rather, "the faith of the Son of God". For F.L. the journey began over 62 years ago. At this final chapter of my life, my eyes must become sharper, and my ears hear the Hum of the Father. Thank you for the blessings, I need every last one of them.

“It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply.” - A.W. Tozer-

And after He has hurt him deeply, He heals it all, so that no pain remains. The only suffering that remains is sharing the suffering of others as He did when He was here. Test the spirit who brought you the words given you today."Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh" Answer word for word, "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." Test the spirit behind your doctrine for it comes not from above, but from below. When dealing with the enemy it is wise to ask oneself, what does he gain by this? What does he gain by this doctrine and what are the implications for people to believe this. For example, what would the enemy gain by appearing in a cave to a young shepherd boy, disquised as an angel of light, and bringing words that no man could speak. Surly this is from God he would think. The words he received were like honey to his lips and yet by the time it reaches the stomach it becomes as bitter as wormwood. Consider the words I have spoken unto you, for times is short and it is The Lord's desire that none should perish.No not one!

 

[FineLinen]

And after He has hurt him deeply, He heals it all, so that no pain remains. The only suffering that remains is sharing the suffering of others as He did when He was here. Test the spirit who brought you the words given you today."Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh" Answer word for word, "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." Test the spirit behind your doctrine for it comes not from above, but from below. When dealing with the enemy it is wise to ask oneself, what does he gain by this? What does he gain by this doctrine and what are the implications for people to believe this. For example, what would the enemy gain by appearing in a cave to a young shepherd boy, disquised as an angel of light, and bringing words that no man could speak. Surly this is from God he would think. The words he received were like honey to his lips and yet by the time it reaches the stomach it becomes as bitter as wormwood. Consider the words I have spoken unto you, for times is short and it is The Lord's desire that none should perish.No not one!

Dear GTW: much thanks for your comments.

The fact is the Master of Reconciliation loses nothing! Not broken fish, not broken bread, and most assuredly NOT broken mankind for whom He appears as the Mercy Seat

"God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command this & teach this."

Please Note:

Malista is not monos or monon!

 

[FineLinen]

"With God, one day is as good as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day. God isn’t late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn’t want anyone lost. He’s giving everyone space and time to change. But when the Day of God’s Judgment does come, it will be unannounced, like a thief. The sky will collapse with a thunderous bang, everything disintegrating in a huge conflagration, earth and all its works exposed to the scrutiny of Judgment.

Since everything here today might well be gone tomorrow, do you see how essential it is to live a holy life? Daily expect the Day of God, eager for its arrival. The galaxies will burn up and the elements melt down that day—but we’ll hardly notice. We’ll be looking the other way, ready for the promised new heavens and the promised new earth, all landscaped with righteousness.

So, my dear friends, since this is what you have to look forward to, do your very best to be found living at your best, in purity and peace. Interpret our Master’s patient restraint for what it is: salvation. Our good brother Paul, who was given much wisdom in these matters, refers to this in all his letters, and has written you essentially the same thing. Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand. Irresponsible people who don’t know what they are talking about twist them every which way. They do it to the rest of the Scriptures, too, destroying themselves as they do it.

But you, friends, are well-warned. Be on guard lest you lose your footing and get swept off your feet by these lawless and loose-talking teachers. Grow in grace and understanding of our Master and Savior, Jesus Christ. Glory to the Master, now and forever! Yes!"

 

[FineLinen]

1. "This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time." -Jesus, the Christ-

 

[FineLinen]

What If I Am Wrong?

 

[Saint Steven]

What If I Am Wrong?

Thanks for the video.
Seems he didn't answer the question. Did I miss it?
Sounded like he reversed the question on the "Hellers" (slur)

Other than that, good job. Thumbs-Up here and on YouTube.
I'll probably subscribe. I'll check out his channel.
This bears repeating. It went by fast.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

Blessings to you Fine Linen! It is The Spirit that bares witness to The Spirit. The Lord is Perfect in all His ways. So that you may know, when He speaks, His Words are Perfect and flows like a river. The Lord is also just in all His ways. When He returns, and return He will, He is bringing His rewards with Him. The words you said you received this morning, are not from the One who gives you the night and day, and The Perfect balance of all things. In a nutshell, you have been duped.

Obviously you had a check in your spirit about what was said.
But did the Spirit direct you to confront FL?
We are not obligated to confront everything we perceive.
Be sure you have the directive to move.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Hillsage
The question was asked earlier about how inappropriate it is (something like that) to claim that God would put people in the fire of "hell" for all eternity with no hope of escape.

Couldn't we apply the same principle to ten minutes? Granted it's not eternal, nor without hope of escape. But even one minute in hell might SEEM like an eternity. Did not Hitler give his victims at least one minute of "hell"? (gas chamber) Sorry, I know that is a horrible thought. Not sure how else to frame this.

If the punishment was to extract a confession, one wouldn't need to be there long to be compliant to whatever your torturer wanted. One would think that even the prospect of being bound hand and foot to be thrown into such a place would release the desired confession. But I suppose this would not happen if a sentence needed to be carried out. Who will judge such cases to determine the appropriate sentence?

Is it not the saints that will determine such things? Will it be my job (assuming) and yours to sentence souls to time in "hell"? Measured how? In years? Minutes? Seconds? Millenniums? Eons? -- I suppose these questions are rhetorical, because we don't know the answers.

Revelation 14:10
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Matthew 22:13
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[FineLinen]

And after He has hurt him deeply, He heals it all, so that no pain remains.

Dear GTW: Welcome to the God of unlimited. His hurts are soothed with the salve of His glory, and ends with expansion into more and more of Him.

I'm a universalist now: but

Quote = The Colossian's passage is an exception because there are extremely strong exegetical grounds for taking "all" literally there. Far stronger than Romans 5:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, even. I think that passage is the only reason I'm a universalist now (though I confess I find Ezekiel 16 and Isaiah 57:16 to be rather compelling as well).

Well, my friend, if Col. 1:20 is the "only reason" you are a universalist now, you evidently must acquaint yourself more fully with the Scriptures including Romans 5: and 1 Cor. 15.

"And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation."

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11-

"Men shall worship Him"

"Every one"

"From his place"

"And all the isles of the heathen"

Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

The purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring? =

"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

"The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements? = The Living Life who has spoken it!

"I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

 

[FineLinen]

An ongoing campaign

The Campaign to Eliminate Hell

HELL ISN’T AS popular as it used to be.

Over the last 20 years, the number of Americans who believe in the fiery down under has dropped from 71 percent to 58 percent. Heaven, by contrast, fares much better and, among Christians, remains an almost universally accepted concept.

Underlying these statistics is a conundrum that continues to tug at the conscience of some Christians, who find it difficult to reconcile the existence of a just, loving God with a doctrine that dooms billions of people to eternal punishment.

"Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die," wrote the late Clark Pinnock, an influential evangelical theologian.

While religious philosophers have argued over the true nature of hell since the earliest days of Christianity, the debate has become especially pronounced in recent decades among the millions of Americans who identify themselves as evangelicals. The once taboo topic is being openly discussed as well-regarded scholars publish articles and best-selling books that rely on careful readings of Scripture to challenge traditional views.

 

[GTW27]

Obviously you had a check in your spirit about what was said.
But did the Spirit direct you to confront FL?
We are not obligated to confront everything we perceive.
Be sure you have the directive to move.

I write what I am given Saint Steven. So the answer is yes. This doctrine easily forgets that The Lord is just. He is the only One who can be Just and Judge. Do I wish that every one would be saved and taken out of the hand of darkness and the suffering. Yes I do, with everything that He has made me to be. As I said before, even though I am not worthy, I do walk in The Spirit and preach in The Spirit as The Lord wills. He has anointed me to preach the Gospel just as was done in the beginning and will continue until my last breath. And this doctrine is not included, for it is not from above, but from below. I do not have checks in my spirit Saint Steven. For it is The Spirit that bares witness to The Spirit. I have delivered the message and even now FL is at least thinking about it. Beautiful words and a hopeful notion does not make it The Truth. Be careful and be Blessed Saint Steven!

 

[FineLinen]

I write what I am given Saint Steven. So the answer is yes. This doctrine easily forgets that The Lord is just. He is the only One who can be Just and Judge. Do I wish that every one would be saved and taken out of the hand of darkness and the suffering. Yes I do, with everything that He has made me to be. As I said before, even though I am not worthy, I do walk in The Spirit and preach in The Spirit as The Lord wills. He has anointed me to preach the Gospel just as was done in the beginning and will continue until my last breath. And this doctrine is not included, for it is not from above, but from below. I do not have checks in my spirit Saint Steven. For it is The Spirit that bares witness to The Spirit. I have delivered the message and even now FL is at least thinking about it. Beautiful words and a hopeful notion does not make it The Truth. Be careful and be Blessed Saint Steven!

 

[FineLinen]

Justice -George MacDonald-

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

"Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

 

[FineLinen]

Justice= d i k e =

What is right.

Followed by execution of a sentence.

Punishment/ vengeance.

Mercy= eleos=

An outward expression of pity assuming need on the part of him who receives it.

Adequate resources on the part of him who shows it.

God who is rich in eleos.

"Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

“If man had his way, the plan of redemption would be an endless and bloody conflict. In reality, salvation was bought not by Jesus' fist, but by His nail-pierced hands; not by muscle but by love; not by vengeance but by forgiveness; not by force but by sacrifice. Jesus Christ our Lord surrendered in order that He might win; He destroyed His enemies by dying for them and conquered death by allowing death to conquer Him.” -A.W. Tozer-