Should the minimum wage be hiked?

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi yekcidmij,

I'm not sure how raising the cost of business would help either. However, what I know is that while they historically have paid lower wages, it doesn't seem to have helped in making them higher ranked and so maybe going the other way is the answer to the problem. Maybe paying a more fair wage would allow their people to live a better life. A better life that would raise their standard of living so that they aren't always on the bottom of these lists. I think one must consider that it is possible that paying some of the lowest wages may equate to the poverty and decline in the states overall economy. Maybe the state could come up off the bottom if it put more emphasis on answering the worker's issues rather than siding more with the businesses issues. Just a thought.

Or, they can be satisfied where they are in such rankings and just keep the status quo. All I know is that there wasn't any way that my father was going to entice me to move back to WV after I left, knowing the general plight of the WV economy.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The major industries in WV; mining, logging, agriculture, tourism; don't require a high level of (worker) education. It's also a cultural thing.

 

[archarios]

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[Quasiblogo]

No min-wage, please. Jobs cut, perm-jobs changed to temp-jobs to avoid overhead of benefits, admin-jobs outsourced overseas, etc.

The best way to answer the question of “why no stipulated min-salary base?” is to answer the question of “why no max-salary ceiling?” Any satisfactory answer must address both market and human concerns. Otherwise, it’s 1984 or a cruel taskmaster with no humanitarian bent.

 

[miamited]

Hi OWG,

Thanks for your response:

The major industries in WV; mining, logging, agriculture, tourism; don't require a high level of (worker) education. It's also a cultural thing.

That's exactly the kind of thinking that has kept WV where it is. We don't do that so we don't need that. In SC there is a department that actively travels around the globe to encourage and entice all kinds of businesses to set up shop in our state. Mining, logging, agriculture and tourism don't have to be the biggest businesses of the state. Coal mining is effectively dying and isn't likely to ever come back despite someone saying that they are going to bring it back. Utilities don't want to use coal in other areas of the country because the people there don't want coal produced electric. You can bring all the coal out of the ground that you want, but if there's no market for it, what do you do with it? Logging is still a very viable business and I would agree that it should be a large part of a state that is as forested as WV. I've honestly never considered WV much of an agricultural player. Sure, there are farms dotted about the state, but they aren't known for being a particularly large player in the agricultural industry that I'm aware of. Pretty much every state has a fairly vibrant tourism industry. Each state has parks and landmarks and natural beauty that makes it a place that people want to see on their vacations and such. However, even in this, WV pales in tourism compared to states like FL or CA or any of the coastal states.

So, my point, if those are the 'big' industries of WV, then WV needs to adjust its goals. It needs to put real effort into drawing in other industries and in order to do that it needs to be able to offer a fairly competent and skilled workforce. Yes, these are goals that will likely take years to bring to fruition and they have only themselves to blame that they have had the kind of thinking that you have for so long and thus rested upon their laurels and wasted decades of time and effort.

All we do is mining, logging, agriculture and tourism, so we don't need to create a skilled labor market.

SC fought hard for a Boeing plant that employs nearly 7,000 workers. We promised Boeing that we would have a skilled labor force for them to draw from. We worked to create the environment that Boeing wanted for the new facility. You see, SC suffered the same thing that WV is suffering. Millwork used to be the biggest industry in SC and then the majority of the mills shut down and we made a conscious effort to draw in new and different industries to employ as many of those unemployed that we can.

BMW moved into SC a number of years ago and they have been a great boon for our state economy because auto production generally fuels a lot of ancillary businesses. In my small city of Seneca we have a very large Borg Warner plant that makes major components for the BMW plant in Greenville. We have trucks running constantly from Seneca to Greenville with these parts. Clemson University even began a special automotive training program called Icar to interact with BMW and train workers to their specific requirements.

WV could do these same things...or they could be satisfied with who and what they are. A poor state with poor and uneducated people that will always be thus... because all they do is mining, logging, agriculture and tourism. They can spend countless hours of manpower to work to bring back an industry that is just going to die anyway, or they can look to the future and make the state a place where other businesses want to set up shop. It's the choice of the people of the state. No other state is going to do it for them.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Hank77]

Clemson University even began a special automotive training program called Icar to interact with BMW and train workers to their specific requirements.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi OWG,

Thanks for your response:


That's exactly the kind of thinking that has kept WV where it is. We don't do that so we don't need that. In SC there is a department that actively travels around the globe to encourage and entice all kinds of businesses to set up shop in our state. Mining, logging, agriculture and tourism don't have to be the biggest businesses of the state. Coal mining is effectively dying and isn't likely to ever come back despite someone saying that they are going to bring it back. Utilities don't want to use coal in other areas of the country because the people there don't want coal produced electric. You can bring all the coal out of the ground that you want, but if there's no market for it, what do you do with it? Logging is still a very viable business and I would agree that it should be a large part of a state that is as forested as WV. I've honestly never considered WV much of an agricultural player. Sure, there are farms dotted about the state, but they aren't known for being a particularly large player in the agricultural industry that I'm aware of. Pretty much every state has a fairly vibrant tourism industry. Each state has parks and landmarks and natural beauty that makes it a place that people want to see on their vacations and such. However, even in this, WV pales in tourism compared to states like FL or CA or any of the coastal states.

So, my point, if those are the 'big' industries of WV, then WV needs to adjust its goals. It needs to put real effort into drawing in other industries and in order to do that it needs to be able to offer a fairly competent and skilled workforce. Yes, these are goals that will likely take years to bring to fruition and they have only themselves to blame that they have had the kind of thinking that you have for so long and thus rested upon their laurels and wasted decades of time and effort.

All we do is mining, logging, agriculture and tourism, so we don't need to create a skilled labor market.

SC fought hard for a Boeing plant that employs nearly 7,000 workers. We promised Boeing that we would have a skilled labor force for them to draw from. We worked to create the environment that Boeing wanted for the new facility. You see, SC suffered the same thing that WV is suffering. Millwork used to be the biggest industry in SC and then the majority of the mills shut down and we made a conscious effort to draw in new and different industries to employ as many of those unemployed that we can.

BMW moved into SC a number of years ago and they have been a great boon for our state economy because auto production generally fuels a lot of ancillary businesses. In my small city of Seneca we have a very large Borg Warner plant that makes major components for the BMW plant in Greenville. We have trucks running constantly from Seneca to Greenville with these parts. Clemson University even began a special automotive training program called Icar to interact with BMW and train workers to their specific requirements.

WV could do these same things...or they could be satisfied with who and what they are. A poor state with poor and uneducated people that will always be thus... because all they do is mining, logging, agriculture and tourism. They can spend countless hours of manpower to work to bring back an industry that is just going to die anyway, or they can look to the future and make the state a place where other businesses want to set up shop. It's the choice of the people of the state. No other state is going to do it for them.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

They're not too happy either. Dead last.

A New Study Just Ranked All 50 States in Order of Happiness, and 37 of Them Are Real Surprises

50. West Virginia
Okay, maybe not a big surprise here, as West Virginia ranks low in so many categories. Surprising perhaps: #49 on adequate sleep.

 

[miamited]

Hi hank,

Yes, SC has worked hard to overcome the loss of its greatest business. 30 years ago all the mills began shutting down as fabric manufacturing moved overseas. Now, we could have sat around crying in our cups that foreign nations were stealing our business, and surely for a short while we did. But then our state leaders began to see that crying about the problem wasn't really going to help the problem.

If you're interested in what the CU-ICAR program does, here are some links:

Clemson University – ICAR - Greenville, South Carolina

College of Engineering, Computing and Applied Sciences | Strategically Located at CU-ICAR

Project 'Treehouse' promises $45M investment for corporate HQ at Clemson research park

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

They're not too happy either. Dead last.

A New Study Just Ranked All 50 States in Order of Happiness, and 37 of Them Are Real Surprises

50. West Virginia
Okay, maybe not a big surprise here, as West Virginia ranks low in so many categories. Surprising perhaps: #49 on adequate sleep.

Hi OWG,

I was raised in Huntington WV and I was surprised to see a doc on netflix that showed that Huntington was one of the highest rated cities in the country for drug overdoses. Yes, another statistic that I saw showed that both Huntington and Charleston WV are ranked pretty much dead last in 'well being' of the people. They both have a very, very high rate of depression, according to the study. In this study, done only last year: Healthiest & Unhealthiest Cities in America Huntington came in 170th out of 174.

As a stand alone city that wouldn't be terrible, but that rating pretty much stands for the whole state, as your evidence shows. Living in poverty is depressing. I've traveled through some of the 'hollers' in WV and you see people with nothing to do but sit out on their porches and buildings are dirty, grimy dingy things. Trash is everywhere. There just isn't any enduring 'happiness' in the people.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi OWG,

I was raised in Huntington WV and I was surprised to see a doc on netflix that showed that Huntington was one of the highest rated cities in the country for drug overdoses. Yes, another statistic that I saw showed that both Huntington and Charleston WV are ranked pretty much dead last in 'well being' of the people. They both have a very, very high rate of depression, according to the study. In this study, done only last year: Healthiest & Unhealthiest Cities in America Huntington came in 170th out of 174.

As a stand alone city that wouldn't be terrible, but that rating pretty much stands for the whole state, as your evidence shows. Living in poverty is depressing. I've traveled through some of the 'hollers' in WV and you see people with nothing to do but sit out on their porches and buildings are dirty, grimy dingy things. Trash is everywhere. There just isn't any enduring 'happiness' in the people.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I chalk a lot of that up to hillbilly culture. The early Scots-Irish immigrants 'headed for the hills' feeling more at home there, even though making a living was tougher. In contrast the English and German immigrants headed for the flat agricultural lands, and prospered.

 

[blackribbon]

That is called wage compression and it is a temporary effect of raising the minimum wage. In the long term, raising the floor does cause the other wages to increase. And what do you mean every time the min wage increases products increase? The CPI in areas where the min wage has increased has not increased at the same rate - that’s flat wrong.

Have you looked around lately? Yes, the price of products increase. Lately they are doing it differently than just raising the prices. Half gallon ice cream containers are not 1.5 quarts. Sugar is for a 4lb bag instead of a 5lb bag. And so on.

And no, in areas like I work, the floor doesn't cause the other areas to raise proportionally. If it did, then it would just be proof that it raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything but raise the baseline. In reality, the companies are forced to find ways to keep the end cost down which means working with less employees, cutting corners in quality, or moving to other countries where they can get cheap labor completely eliminating the jobs from our market.

 

[blackribbon]

Instead of increasing minimum wage, how about minimum wage workers get some skills to get higher paying jobs. That is how the economy thrives. It may mean taking some classes on your time off or taking on more responsibilities. But give me a break. Even my niece only spent a few months at minimum wage working fast food and is now making more being a shift leader and hoping to be getting a promotion again before the summer is out.

 

[blackribbon]

Which is moot, since few companies downsized due to min wage increases. That’s just the fear everyone had but we now know it isn’t the reality.

Are you sure? Chances are if you are admitted to the hospital your nurse and other staff will have less time for you and be caring for more patients than they should. How long does it take to get an appointment for a doctor, specialist, or an outpatient scan?

McDonalds is doing ordering online and at kiosks so they don't have to have people taking your order.

Stores are going to cyber stores eliminating the sales force.

Huge movie theaters...lots of customers, few employees to serve them.

Self scan aisles in the store (one employee to cover maybe 10 registers).

and so on.

 

[miamited]

Instead of increasing minimum wage, how about minimum wage workers get some skills to get higher paying jobs. That is how the economy thrives. It may mean taking some classes on your time off or taking on more responsibilities. But give me a break. Even my niece only spent a few months at minimum wage working fast food and is now making more being a shift leader and hoping to be getting a promotion again before the summer is out.

Hi blackribbon,

That's a wonderful plan, but who's going to pay for that skilled education. Certainly not the person making minimum wage or slightly better. My 44 year old son is doing that. He had a low skill job and he applied for and received state scholarship funding for higher education. He's now taking courses in HVAC and has even already gotten a job as a trainee for a A/C service company. He's already been told that when he completes his training and gets his haz/mat certification for refrigerants, he'll likely be worth another $5/hr. and then it's up from there as he gets raises and seeks more education to hopefully get to a place where he can at least manage an office or go out on his own.

But, my son was motivated and he doesn't have a family and so he can afford to take the time off necessary for class work after job work that is required to do this. However, the greatest benefit to him was the scholarship. So, there's certainly nothing wrong with your plan once minimum wage workers can figure out how to pay for it. For a family person it takes great sacrifice to give up money that could pay for things for your family, to go to school.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Sparagmos]

Have you looked around lately? Yes, the price of products increase. Lately they are doing it differently than just raising the prices. Half gallon ice cream containers are not 1.5 quarts. Sugar is for a 4lb bag instead of a 5lb bag. And so on.

And no, in areas like I work, the floor doesn't cause the other areas to raise proportionally. If it did, then it would just be proof that it raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything but raise the baseline. In reality, the companies are forced to find ways to keep the end cost down which means working with less employees, cutting corners in quality, or moving to other countries where they can get cheap labor completely eliminating the jobs from our market.

CPI, dude. Now you’re going down the rabbit hole. If you seriously want to know the truth anecdotes are not remotely adequate.

If what you are saying is true, then the unemployment rates in areas and sectors where the minimum wage was increased would have higher than average unemployment rates, and they don’t. All of the fast food places around here are hiring, and most of the restaurants. Starbucks, hiring. I represent low wage retail workers and that industry is also always hiring. People can get a job here in two days. And they are all really happy the min wage is $12.50.

 

[Sparagmos]

Instead of increasing minimum wage, how about minimum wage workers get some skills to get higher paying jobs. That is how the economy thrives. It may mean taking some classes on your time off or taking on more responsibilities. But give me a break. Even my niece only spent a few months at minimum wage working fast food and is now making more being a shift leader and hoping to be getting a promotion again before the summer is out.

There aren’t enough higher paying jobs to employ all of those minimum wage workers. We have a huge number of people in our society that do service and retail work that we depend on. Someone will always be doing that work, and anyone who works 40 hours a week should be able to have a roof over their head, have affordable health insurance, and be able to eat a healthy diet. You can’t do that on $7.50 an hour.

 

[Sparagmos]

Are you sure? Chances are if you are admitted to the hospital your nurse and other staff will have less time for you and be caring for more patients than they should. How long does it take to get an appointment for a doctor, specialist, or an outpatient scan?

McDonalds is doing ordering online and at kiosks so they don't have to have people taking your order.

Stores are going to cyber stores eliminating the sales force.

Huge movie theaters...lots of customers, few employees to serve them.

Self scan aisles in the store (one employee to cover maybe 10 registers).

and so on.

It’s my job to monitor workload and industrywide wage trends. When the recession hit, employers cut labor costs by downsizing and forcing more work on fewer people. Then, when the economy recovered and employers were making record profits, they still expected workers to do more. The nurses at the hospital will tell you that the cutting of hours etc. started before the raises in the minimum wage.

Automation is also an important issue for me to keep abreast of. In the industries I deal with, we are preparing for big changes due to automation. This was also in the works long before the min wage increases, and is absolutely inevitable. This has happened many times in history. Workers used to work 12-14 hour days, and with union organizing, inventions and technology that required less manpower, we saw the workday reduced to 8 hours, and people also transitioned into new fields. Minimum wage workers are already close to being on the street (or they are,) they will laugh if you tell them that they should not get a raise so that their boss will wait a little bit longer before automating their job. Automation means less menial, unrewarding work that people have to do, with the same profits. It’s up to us as a society to make the right choices as to how we distribute that extra free time that will come with more automation.

 

[blackribbon]

CPI, dude. Now you’re going down the rabbit hole. If you seriously want to know the truth anecdotes are not remotely adequate.

If what you are saying is true, then the unemployment rates in areas and sectors where the minimum wage was increased would have higher than average unemployment rates, and they don’t. All of the fast food places around here are hiring, and most of the restaurants. Starbucks, hiring. I represent low wage retail workers and that industry is also always hiring. People can get a job here in two days. And they are all really happy the min wage is $12.50.

First of all, I am not a "dude". Second of all, CPI isn't common language.

Are the fast food places around you paying minimum wage? The ones around here advertise pay at a higher rate so market driven wages. Our minimum wage is much lower than $12.50. However, question: If people are so happy with that wage, why are their open jobs? People who are happy stay where they are.

 

[blackribbon]

Hi blackribbon,

That's a wonderful plan, but who's going to pay for that skilled education. Certainly not the person making minimum wage or slightly better. My 44 year old son is doing that. He had a low skill job and he applied for and received state scholarship funding for higher education. He's now taking courses in HVAC and has even already gotten a job as a trainee for a A/C service company. He's already been told that when he completes his training and gets his haz/mat certification for refrigerants, he'll likely be worth another $5/hr. and then it's up from there as he gets raises and seeks more education to hopefully get to a place where he can at least manage an office or go out on his own.

But, my son was motivated and he doesn't have a family and so he can afford to take the time off necessary for class work after job work that is required to do this. However, the greatest benefit to him was the scholarship. So, there's certainly nothing wrong with your plan once minimum wage workers can figure out how to pay for it. For a family person it takes great sacrifice to give up money that could pay for things for your family, to go to school.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Community college is affordable. You take classes around your work schedule. But I am talking about improving your skills within a job. My niece works for Dairy Queen. She started at the entry level minimum wage position. Moved up to shift leader. Is likely to get promoted to assistant manager. All management skills are coming from the job and striving to learn from her leaders withing the context of her job. (Can I add she is working 40 hrs a week and going to school full-time). There are also trades that teach on the job...the electricians union starts you as a helper and you work for low wages while attending classes until you move up and qualify to be an electrician. You don't have to go to college or paid classes to get skills. And yes, I don't expect a person with a family to be on minimum wage...I would have hoped that he/she would have been able to provide for them before taking on that responsibility.

 

[Christopher0121]

It's a mixed bag. Some local economies wouldn't be effected that much and it would provide a boost. Others would see greater impact and suffer job losses and an increase in overall costs.

There isn't a one size fits all solution.

But one has to ask... Is minimum wage family friendly?

I know families in which a single parent has to work two jobs on minimum wage just to make ends meet. This takes away from them being able to be present in the home and parenting. I know couples wherein not only do both have to work, but one (and in some cases both) have to take a second job just to make ends meet. This is terrible for both family and marriage.

Sadly, in this current economy the average worker is essentially a "wage slave" working most waking hours and even weekends, making only enough to pay for bills, necessities, and a very limited amount of luxuries or recreational expenses leaving virtually nothing for savings or retirement.

As this next generation becomes too old to work, they will be in far worse shape than the Baby Boomers, with millions being left destitute and essentially homeless, without insurance, and without food security. The wage slaves will no longer be of value and left to die.

Not much unlike it was in the Guilded-Age and the early Industrial Age. We'll see the rise of shanty towns on the edges of city limits once more.

 

[blackribbon]

It's a mixed bag. Some local economies wouldn't be effected that much and it would provide a boost. Others would see greater impact and suffer job losses and an increase in overall costs.

There isn't a one size fits all solution.

But one has to ask... Is minimum wage family friendly?

I know families in which a single parent has to work two jobs on minimum wage just to make ends meet. This takes away from them being able to be present in the home and parenting. I know couples wherein not only do both have to work, but one (and in some cases both) have to take a second job just to make ends meet. This is terrible for both family and marriage.

Sadly, in this current economy the average worker is essentially a "wage slave" working most waking hours and even weekends, making only enough to pay for bills, necessities, and a very limited amount of luxuries or recreational expenses leaving virtually nothing for savings or retirement.

As this next generation becomes too old to work, they will be in far worse shape than the Baby Boomers, with millions being left destitute and essentially homeless, without insurance, and without food security. The wage slaves will no longer be of value and left to die.

Not much unlike it was in the Guilded-Age and the early Industrial Age. We'll see the rise of shanty towns on the edges of city limits once more.

Minimum wage jobs are entry level jobs. They are not intended to support a family. They are not intended to support an individual with a life of luxuries like a cell phone, cable, and a nice car. A couple could get by with a spartan life style with TWO minimum wage jobs (one each). A single person can get by with a roommate(s) to share expenses. I have never had a minimum wage job except when I picked one up to make extra money. I had skills at 15 through volunteer work that meant when I qualified to work at 16, I didn't start at minimum wage. Neither of my college kids make minimum wage. My daughter started at $12 an hour at 16 for the same reason I had. My son worked minimum wage because it was entry level and he wanted to work his way up. None of their jobs require more than a high school diploma in spite of their college.