The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Saint Steven]

This is an uncoordinated, unresponsive reply. DO NOT MERELY STATE A CONTRADICTION. I said my daughter is under age. Now I am saying she is not under age.

The question was how does John 3:16 go against Universalism?

John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with Universalism. That's the problem.
Universalism is against John 3:16, not the other way around.
John 3:16 says nothing about Universalism. The two are incompatible.

 

[FineLinen]

The koine theion is the incense of Jehovah and is rooted in theioo which is Theos. The Lake of Fire is the incense of Jehovah rooted firmly in Theos. Make zero mistake: our God is consuming fire; the Limne of Theos is consuming fire in which every last element of sin and iniquity is consumed: every last rotten bit!

The association of fire with purification in both old and new covenants is easily traceable. In the old testament the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.

St. Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every man’s work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved. St. John, makes it a point to call the Lake of pur the Lake of Fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. With sulfur being a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times.

Destruction or purification?

Neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can’t function as a tank any longer.

Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, it’s intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms. Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.

So, what we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to it’s intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element.

 

[Hillsage]

John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with Universalism. That's the problem.
Universalism is against John 3:16, not the other way around.
John 3:16 says nothing about Universalism. The two are incompatible.

Context Steve...context. Add verse 17, and an opinion from a scholar above both of our pay grades.

JOH 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

"MIGHT" or "MAY"
I asked my friend, Dr. Michael Jones, a Hebrew and Greek scholar, what he thought of “might” in John 3:17. Here is a man that only reads the New Testament in the Greek language. In fact, he teaches N.T. Greek. He explained to me in a very simple way: Using “might” in John 3:17 is not good translating. The force of the subjunctive here is not like a maybe, or a might. That is why many translators leave “might” out, i.e., to keep the English-only reader from getting confused. The subjunctive can be a might, i.e., a possibility–a maybe–a might, and yet, it can also emphasize a statement of fact better than the indicative mood/mode. So, let me illustrate this in English: If a translator gave us a transport from a form critical method of translation theory, he might write: “Bob hit the ball over the fence so that he might have a home-run”. But a translator using a dynamic equivalent model of translation theory might write it like this: “Bob hit the ball over the fence to get a home-run.” Note that the subjunctive is there, but difficult to see in English.”

You also proved you still don't know what universalism believes. PROVE your comment below from your last post 2958;

Universalism says it doesn't matter what you believe.

WHO is saying that. That's certainly not what I believe. Everyone WILL believe because that and a confession is what it takes to make Jesus the savior to every individual.

ACT 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

PHI 2:10 that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY TONGUE confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You are just believing wrongly as to WHEN you think they have to believe. You and the nominal church think it's 'this age' only. And you're also proving the church doesn't even know what Joh 3:16 is saying either.

YLT JOH 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The God LIFE that's available in this age is immortality. And if you sin then you aren't believing your LORD Jesus because a man DOES WHAT HE IS BELIEVING. So if you're still sinning as a Christian, then your body is going die and return to the dust from whence it came....IOW NO IMMORTALITY and to HADES/GRAVE your body goes. To await a judgment of purgative fire for all those sins you did still commit after confessing Jesus was YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR in THIS AGE. Well, you got the SAVIOR part right But Jesus sure as HADES isn't the LORD you're listening to if you still sin in this age since you got "saved", with your sinners prayer. But His plan for you, me and ALL doesn't end with this age, or the age to come. According Eph there were at least TWO ages to follow when Ephesians was written;

EPH 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace...

Who is HE going to SHEW this SAVING GRACE to, in the ages to come? You're already SAVED right? This is a good time to put your thinking cap on Steve.

 

[HatGuy]

Universalism says it doesn't matter what you believe. The verse (John 3:16) says it does matter what you believe.

This answers my question from earlier . You're thinking religious pluralism ("all roads lead to heaven"). You're not thinking Christian universalism.

Definitions matter.

Christian universalism does not teach it doesn't matter what (or better yet, in who) you believe. It teaches you must believe in Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

This answers my question from earlier . You're thinking religious pluralism ("all roads lead to heaven"). You're not thinking Christian universalism.

Definitions matter.

Christian universalism does not teach it doesn't matter what (or better yet, in who) you believe. It teaches you must believe in Christ.

Dear HatGuy from South Africa: We are glad you found us! The following quote from another brother, sums up for me a critical truth.

"Most of you will experience the bible as a sort of road map to your life. I have to admit, I also did the same thing. And I was very sure about it. And we went on to try to figure the scriptures out…

But the scriptures have mysteries, and the mysteries are great and wonderful.

God is at work, but in my estimation, not in the way the evangelicals want to believe." -Maintenanceman-

 

[FineLinen]

Context Steve...context. Add verse 17, and an opinion from a scholar above both of our pay grades.

JOH 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

"MIGHT" or "MAY"
I asked my friend, Dr. Michael Jones, a Hebrew and Greek scholar, what he thought of “might” in John 3:17. Here is a man that only reads the New Testament in the Greek language. In fact, he teaches N.T. Greek. He explained to me in a very simple way: Using “might” in John 3:17 is not good translating. The force of the subjunctive here is not like a maybe, or a might. That is why many translators leave “might” out, i.e., to keep the English-only reader from getting confused. The subjunctive can be a might, i.e., a possibility–a maybe–a might, and yet, it can also emphasize a statement of fact better than the indicative mood/mode. So, let me illustrate this in English: If a translator gave us a transport from a form critical method of translation theory, he might write: “Bob hit the ball over the fence so that he might have a home-run”. But a translator using a dynamic equivalent model of translation theory might write it like this: “Bob hit the ball over the fence to get a home-run.” Note that the subjunctive is there, but difficult to see in English.”

You also proved you still don't know what universalism believes. PROVE your comment below from your last post 2958;
WHO is saying that. That's certainly not what I believe. Everyone WILL believe because that and a confession is what it takes to make Jesus the savior to every individual.

ACT 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

PHI 2:10 that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY TONGUE confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You are just believing wrongly as to WHEN you think they have to believe. You and the nominal church think it's 'this age' only. And you're also proving the church doesn't even know what Joh 3:16 is saying either.

YLT JOH 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The God LIFE that's available in this age is immortality. And if you sin then you aren't believing your LORD Jesus because a man DOES WHAT HE IS BELIEVING. So if you're still sinning as a Christian, then your body is going die and return to the dust from whence it came....IOW NO IMMORTALITY and to HADES/GRAVE your body goes. To await a judgment of purgative fire for all those sins you did still commit after confessing Jesus was YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR in THIS AGE. Well, you got the SAVIOR part right But Jesus sure as HADES isn't the LORD you're listening to if you still sin in this age since you got "saved", with your sinners prayer. But His plan for you, me and ALL doesn't end with this age, or the age to come. According Eph there were at least TWO ages to follow when Ephesians was written;

EPH 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace...

Who is HE going to SHEW this SAVING GRACE to, in the ages to come? You're already SAVED right? This is a good time to put your thinking cap on Steve.

The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for “our God is a consuming fire;” (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord “came to cast fire into the earth,” and desired nothing more than “that it should be already kindled;” (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,

Mark 9: 49

For this is the very “baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire,” (Matt. 3: 11) that “spirit of judgment and burning,” promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defense; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for “He is like a refiner’s fire, and like a fuller’s soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness.” (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ’s flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God’s purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, “He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire.” (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)

And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For “the Lord will come with fire,” and “by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that “warfare of the service of the tabernacle” (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.

-Andrew Jukes-

 

[Saint Steven]

You also proved you still don't know what universalism believes.

Correct.
That has been my complaint on this thread all along.

The Universalists in the group (and most obviously the thread originator) seem to think I don't understand Universalism because I am stupid.
I think I don't understand it because it has been poorly presented.
So, obviously any argument I bring will be lacking even the most basic knowledge about it.

If I was either more gullible or more concerned with group acceptance I would have just agreed with this. However...

 

[Saint Steven]

Context Steve...context. Add verse 17, and an opinion from a scholar above both of our pay grades.

Fair enough.
But how does that balance with the "so that" in verse sixteen?

 

[Saint Steven]

You are just believing wrongly as to WHEN you think they have to believe. You and the nominal church think it's 'this age' only. And you're also proving the church doesn't even know what Joh 3:16 is saying either.

It seems to me that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is woven throughout the NT. For instance, the "so that" in John 3:16. ...so that whoever believes will not perish...

 

[Saint Steven]

EPH 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace...

Who is HE going to SHEW this SAVING GRACE to, in the ages to come? You're already SAVED right? This is a good time to put your thinking cap on Steve.

That's a good find. Is that an isolated case, or are there more verses that reference the ages to come? When I do a quick search only two come up. Here's the other one below.

Joel 2:2
a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another question. And this may depend on the individual.
Does Universalism apply this ages idea to the original creation week?
Thus claiming that each "day" in creation was an age. The day/age theory.

 

[Saint Steven]

This answers my question from earlier . You're thinking religious pluralism ("all roads lead to heaven"). You're not thinking Christian universalism.

Definitions matter.

Christian universalism does not teach it doesn't matter what (or better yet, in who) you believe. It teaches you must believe in Christ.

Thanks.
I was pointing to the lack of urgency to make a decision in this earthy lifetime. If ultimately everyone will be saved, then ultimately (in reference to gaining eternal life) it doesn't matter what you believe.

 

[FineLinen]

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you really believe that all your belittling will help me to understand?
A superiority complex is really just insecurity on parade.

 

[FineLinen]

"I wanted to put into writing my own journey out of hell.

That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.

I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.

The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.

"Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?

"I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because I'm a leader and we get more enemy fire.

But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.

"As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell."

Pastor Mark

 

[FineLinen]

The message of the Prophets rings in our ears! The Universal Hum & its source as yet has not been discovered.

The Hum of all hums=

The Prophets

"He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass; as showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish: and abundance of peace so long as the moon endures. He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth." Ps. 72: 6-8.

"All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord; and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favorable no more? Is his mercy clean gone forever? does his promise fail for evermore? Has God forgotten to be gracious? has he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the Most High." - Ps. 77: 10.

"For he says, The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger forever". Ps. 103: 9.

"For his anger endures but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." Ps. 30: 5.

"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my
commandments; then will I visit their transgressions with the rod, and their iniquities with stripes, nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail." Ps. 89: 30-33.

"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion; slow to anger and of great mercy. The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works." Ps. 165: 8, 9.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"O you that hears prayer, unto you shall all flesh come." Ps. 65: 2.

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." Isa. 25: 8.

"Look unto me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself; the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall say: "In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Isa. 45: 24-27.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied."Isa. 53: 11.

"As the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth and makes it bring forth and bud that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa. 55: 10, 11.

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget you." Isa. 49: 15.

"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord, for I will forgive their sin and I will remember their iniquity no more." Jer. 31: 31-34.

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be your plagues: O grave, I will be your destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hos. 13: 14.

"Who is a God like unto you, that pardons iniquity, and passes by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retains not his anger forever because he delights in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us. He will subdue our iniquities, and you will cast all their sins into the depth of the sea. You will perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which you have sworn unto our fathers from the days of old." Mic. 7: 18, 19, 20.

"And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve him: his dominion is an ever lasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Dan. 7: 14.

The Universal Hum

Earth's Mysterious Hum Explained

God's Universal Hum

Cannot be explained!

 

[Hillsage]

It seems to me that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is woven throughout the NT. For instance, the "so that" in John 3:16. ...so that whoever believes will not perish...

You’re right there is an urgency, but that is for the one who is supposed to be saving himself from the sins of this wicked generation if he wants to attain perfection and the immortal life of this age. (This is not UR/Uni teaching BTW.)

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit......40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

Remember the ‘context’ I mentioned earlier? Now include verse 15 to grasp what “life” is being talked about.

John 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

 

[Hillsage]

Correct.
That has been my complaint on this thread all along.

The Universalists in the group (and most obviously the thread originator) seem to think I don't understand Universalism because I am stupid.
I think I don't understand it because it has been poorly presented.
So, obviously any argument I bring will be lacking even the most basic knowledge about it.

If I was either more gullible or more concerned with group acceptance I would have just agreed with this. However...

You have hung in here Steve, and for ‘that’ I do commend you.

 

[Hillsage]

"I wanted to put into writing my own journey out of hell.

That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.

I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.

The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.

"Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?

"I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because I'm a leader and we get more enemy fire.

But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.

"As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell."

I believe this “quote” above is the testimony of another and not yourself. If that is true, can you share ‘who’, or at least confirm my observation for us?

 

[Wrangler]

John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with Universalism. That's the problem.
Universalism is against John 3:16, not the other way around.
John 3:16 says nothing about Universalism. The two are incompatible.

Wow! You really cannot explain how Scripture is contrary to universalism; just re-iterate that it is. Let me use a different subject to illustrate ...

Circles don't have anything to do with Squares. That's the problem.
Squares are against Circular forms, not the other way around.
Circles say nothing about Square forms. The two are incompatible.

Honestly, your level of analysis is virtually non-existent. All you do is repeat mantra's that somehow got into your head. Until you can explain how Scripture goes against universalism, this conversation is dead in the water. (Just re-iterating that it is demonstrates Circular Reasoning).

 

[Wrangler]

You also proved you still don't know what universalism believes.

Correct.
That has been my complaint on this thread all along.

The Universalists in the group (and most obviously the thread originator) seem to think I don't understand Universalism because I am stupid.
I think I don't understand it because it has been poorly presented.

Agh, a young skull full of mush with no responsibility to learn on your own initiative. Did you get trophies when you were a kid just for showing up?

You put your failure to understand on others. It is not just that you are stupid but immature, lacking the intellectual responsibility to understand on your own initiative. You are a victim of Post-Modernism in your indoctrination, mislabeled as 'education.' You have not been educated but indoctrinated. Learn me, you say?

We can show you the door. We have shown you the door. You must choose to walk through. You refuse to walk through. In your view, X is wrong and no presentation can convince you X is right. And you think you are the smartest guy in the room! No, you are just stubborn and immature. It would be big of you to simply admit that you do not agree or accept the validity of Universalism and move on with your life. But that is not your way.