The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Lazarus Short]

Not sure what answer will satisfy you. Death is already defeated. "Second death" is a misnomer for the resurrected souls go into the Lake of Fire, right?

Hell is only a temporary holding place until Judgement Day.

How do you figure that Death is already defeated? Your Bible (and mine) states that Death will the LAST enemy to be defeated. Yes, Jesus began to defeat Death when He was resurrected, but the Defeat is not final, as people are still dead.

 

[Saint Steven]

How do you figure that Death is already defeated? Your Bible (and mine) states that Death will the LAST enemy to be defeated. Yes, Jesus began to defeat Death when He was resurrected, but the Defeat is not final, as people are still dead.

Something to consider.

Luke 20:35-38
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, I would like to see your list of Bible translations. Thanks.

Here it is, then:

A FEW BIBLE VERSIONS WITHOUT HELL



Wesley's New Testament (1755)

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

Young's Literal Translation (1891)

Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)

Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)

Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)

Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)

Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937

The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

Western N.T. (1926)

NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

Concordant Literal NT (1983)

The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

New American Bible (1970)

Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)

Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)

The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

Christian Bible (1991)

World English Bible (in progress)

Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]

Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**

Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)

New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991

New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic

Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007

Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine

Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera

MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation

Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)

 

[Saint Steven]

Here it is, then:

A FEW BIBLE VERSIONS WITHOUT HELL

Thanks.
So, is it just that they do not include the word "hell", or is there more to it than that?

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks.
So, is it just that they do not include the word "hell", or is there more to it than that?

There are three different words in the Greek all translated as the same word Hell in some English NT translations. They are Geena (gehenna), hades, tartaroo. In the OT there was only one Hebrew word and that was sheol. Jesus never said the word hell, because it did not exist as a word for many centuries after Jesus lived.

Wickipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

As you can see, the word hell came centuries after Jesus lived. And all three Greek words had different definitions originally. Definitions which got tweaked over the centuries because theology got tweaked. It is simply a historical fact that 'use determines dictionary definition' with time.

Go back and see what the word 'cool' meant a hundred years ago. Or how about the word 'tough'? When daughter told her Dad her boyfriend was really 'tough', did he think 'you mean like leather' or 'you mean like cool' Probably NOT what dad thought at all! You look at the Greek definitions today and you see 'everlasting punishment' 'eternal torment'. Those definitions weren't true in the beginning, because that doctrine wasn't predominant in the beginning either. As I shared before, I share again from a different source.

KEN VINCENT: The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell became Eternal

Prior to the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of all of Universalist thought in the 6 th Century, Church authority had already reached back in time to pick out several of Origen's ideas they deemed unacceptable. Some that found disfavor were his insistence that the Devil would be saved at the end of time, the pre-existence of human souls, the reincarnation of the wicked, and his claim that the purification of souls could go on for many eons. Finally, he was condemned by the Church because his concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not agree with the "official" Doctrine of the Trinity formulated a century after his death! After the 6 th Century, much of his work was destroyed; fortunately, some of it survived.

According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years - four were Universalist (Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa). One advocated annihilation (Ephesus) and one advocated Eternal Hell (the Latin Church of North Africa). Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Hillsage: YUP!

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

 

[FineLinen]

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria… Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”

Schaff, Phillip, The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol 12, Baker Book House, 1950

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol XIII: Index - TOC

 

[FineLinen]

"God put the world square with himself through the Messiah, giving the world a fresh start by offering forgiveness of sins. God has given us the task of telling everyone what he is doing."

"Grace cannot prevail...until our lifelong certainty that someone is keeping score has run out of steam and collapsed." -Robert F. Capon-

 

[Saint Steven]

There are three different words in the Greek all translated as the same word Hell in some English NT translations. They are Geena (gehenna), hades, tartaroo. In the OT there was only one Hebrew word and that was sheol. Jesus never said the word hell, because it did not exist as a word for many centuries after Jesus lived.

Wickipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
But I was wondering if there was more to those translations than merely not including the word "hell".

So, if you don't call it "hell", what do you call it? Or do you claim it doesn't exist?
I guess I thought you believed that there was a place of correction (torment), but it wasn't called "hell".

Let's break this down to the absolute basics. Please respond to this simple model.
I'll also include a second model that reflects an understanding from a more biblical perspective.

Standard model
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Based on one's behavior, whether good or bad, they would go one of two directions in the afterlife. If the good outweighed the bad they would go to heaven. If the bad outweighed the good, they would go to hell. The determination to be made at the Judgment of all humankind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't believe this, but it is the standard belief as I understand it. But most importantly, it designates a place, which is commonly referred to as "hell", as the destiny of those who are evil in this life. And there is support for this position in the Bible, whether the word "hell" appears in the text or not.

Then there is the born-again view, which I will label the "Evangelical model".

Evangelical model
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The default setting for humankind is fallen, or lost. (spiritual death from Adam)
This means that everyone is born already condemned to an afterlife without salvation. (from what?) However, those who have believed in Christ and accepted the gift of salvation (in the here and now) have been moved away from the default position of being lost and condemned in the afterlife. At death, the bulk of humanity will go to Hades (the realm of the dead) awaiting final judgment, while the redeemed will go to heaven. In the final judgment the lost are condemned to eternal hell. (the lake of fire)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are obvious problems with this model, but it has been the standard.

Please respond to the models. Thanks.
Or, if you could write a Universalist model, no longer than the models above, that would be most helpful. I suppose you will say, "I don't write short!" -- lol
Fine, fine... respond as you see fit.

 

[Saint Steven]

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria… Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”

Schaff, Phillip, The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol 12, Baker Book House, 1950

What was the basis for these Universalist theologies, since they are not found in the Bible?

 

[Saint Steven]

...Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. ...

I pulled this from your quote of Edward Beecher.

This seems to indicate that Universalist teachings do not have a biblical basis.
And perhaps that is my biggest problem with it. A couple of times you have used the phrase, "Study to show yourself approved..." (from memory) But that refers to the one "who correctly handles the word of truth". Somehow, I don't think that is in reference to manmade doctrines.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 NIV
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

 

[Saint Steven]

What was the basis for these Universalist theologies, since they are not found in the Bible?

@FineLinen
Laugh if you like, but this topic has failed in this regard.
Where is the presentation of a biblical case for your claims?

 

[FineLinen]

The history of universalism

The History of Universalism | Christian Universalist Association

When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.

Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32). This hopeful promise was echoed by the teaching of the Apostles who founded the Christian ecclesia (church community). For example, St. Peter taught that Jesus visits sinners in hell to help them become redeemed (1 Pet. 3:18-20, 4:6).

 

[Saint Steven]

When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.

You guys accuse the other side of taking up Roman Catholic doctrines, but then turn around and take up the doctrine of Purgatory.

Furthermore, the author deceptively writes that Jesus used "words that implied a limited, corrective punishment." in reference to "God’s judgment upon the wicked", by claiming that aionios kolasis means "age-long chastisement".

 

[Hillsage]

So, if you don't call it "hell", what do you call it? Or do you claim it doesn't exist?
I guess I thought you believed that there was a place of correction (torment), but it wasn't called "hell".

Go look up your favorite HELL verse in YLT. You can do that can't you? I have that translation on my computer's bible software program so I can read/study 6 translations at a time on one screen shot.

Standard model
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Based on one's behavior, whether good or bad, they would go one of two directions in the afterlife. If the good outweighed the bad they would go to heaven. If the bad outweighed the good, they would go to hell. The determination to be made at the Judgment of all humankind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you didn't reach 'perfect' in working out the salvation of your soul/mind on earth then whatever part of your soulish 'thinking' that is not conformed to "the soul/mind of Christ" will go through purgative fire. That is what the bible says in;

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation...than...Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work ...will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work...any man has built on the foundation survives, he will RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Any soulish thinking you have at death can't dwell in heaven or we'd just have earth's 'hell raisers' there.

I don't believe this, but it is the standard belief as I understand it. But most importantly, it designates a place, which is commonly referred to as "hell", as the destiny of those who are evil in this life. And there is support for this position in the Bible, whether the word "hell" appears in the text or not.

I can't agree with your 'litmus' demands concerning "Hell" because they are founded on your indoctrinated belief system.

And this whole "STANDARD MODEL" has nothing to do with the salvation of your spirit, it ONLY has to do with the 'working out of the salvation of your soul with fear and trembling.'

PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

And this is the "rightly dividing the word of truth" which those who dwell in the 1/2 truth camps of Calvinism OR Armenianism simply do not deal with scripturally. Calvin theology works for spirit salvation/justification and Armenian theology works for soul salvation/sanctification. Neither deals adequately with body/flesh salvation/glorification.

This model you've labeled STANDARD is simply Armenianism. And you working out you soul salvation is subsequent to receiving the born again salvation of your spirit which you never did any of the work necessary to deserve. Jesus DID, and you receive that imputed righteousness (of His work) at your born again spirit's salvation.

Evangelical model
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The default setting for humankind is fallen, or lost. (spiritual death from Adam)
This means that everyone is born already condemned to an afterlife without salvation. (from what?) However, those who have believed in Christ and accepted the gift of salvation (in the here and now) have been moved away from the default position of being lost and condemned in the afterlife. At death, the bulk of humanity will go to Hades (the realm of the dead) awaiting final judgment, while the redeemed will go to heaven. In the final judgment the lost are condemned to eternal hell. (the lake of fire)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nobody's spirit died in the garden, and nobody was severed from "the presence of God" as orthodoxy declares.

GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Cain wasn't born in the Garden. And he wasn't condemned to anything but dying in the flesh on earth because that was the death sentence of God in Eden. And that is the salvation we are to be striving for with initial saving of our spirit. That was the church's first sermon from Peter. Nobody first believing in Christ has a saved soul or body.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; ....40 And .... "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Do this salvation process completely, and you will receives now, what Jesus had to sacrifice on the cross to pay for....immortality. Jesus' body didn't have it, HE DIED physically on the cross that you might LIVE for the rest of TIME in immortal flesh.

RSV ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

YLT ROM 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;

YLT JOH 8:51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see - to the age.'

RSV 1PE 4:1 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of [the] time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.

the lying pen of the scribes have added "HIS time" in the KJV, and "the time" as many translations add. And as much as I'm not impressed with the NIV I think it comes closest to giving the cookie eaters a bit of meat.

1PE 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

And what is the "will of God"? That we might do what Jesus never did. And he did so, to give us 'His body on earth' the chance to do. That being "destroy the last enemy of death" which He had merely "overcome". And physical death was the curse of the garden for man as well as the price paid by Jesus on the cross. His spirit was never prodigal on earth and He worked out the salvation of his soul until he'd suffered enough to BECOME the 'PERFECT man' sacrifice for man.

Jesus was the pattern son for saving your 'spirit' from going prodigal, your 'soul' from worldly stinking thinking, and your 'body' from perishing, as a result of the fall in Eden.

"I don't write short!" -- lol
Fine, fine... respond as you see fit.

AND my triune man salvation belief is not going to line up with every/any UNIVERSAL believer here either Steve.

And you keep proving 'you don't eat elephants very good. So I'm stopping. And don't answer with a million questions because you don't get it. I'm not interested, nor do I have the time. Kid's family still here for the fourth, and have been ever since last Sunday. Daughter's family from Sunday til yesterday and Son's family from Thursday til today.

 

[Wrangler]

How do you figure that Death is already defeated? Your Bible (and mine) states that Death will the LAST enemy to be defeated. Yes, Jesus began to defeat Death when He was resurrected, but the Defeat is not final, as people are still dead.

Hmmm. You know the answer to the question. I sense you are being obtuse, willfully ignorant.

Your construction of "death is already defeated" is limited only to all people having already been resurrected. I don't have such a narrow construction. I don't consider Jesus defeating death as a work in progress. He did rise. Death is defeated. It's like when my wife needed an emergency appendectomy last year. The doctors knew how to perform the surgery before it was her time.

Beyond this is the prophecy and revelation. All will be resurrected. That's the plan. The plan is not look for a way to defeat death. Jesus has the power and knowledge. It's all a matter of his timing.

 

[FineLinen]

Hmmm. You know the answer to the question. I sense you are being obtuse, willfully ignorant.

Your construction of "death is already defeated" is limited only to all people having already been resurrected. I don't have such a narrow construction. I don't consider Jesus defeating death as a work in progress. He did rise. Death is defeated. It's like when my wife needed an emergency appendectomy last year. The doctors knew how to perform the surgery before it was her time.

Beyond this is the prophecy and revelation. All will be resurrected. That's the plan. The plan is not look for a way to defeat death. Jesus has the power and knowledge. It's all a matter of his timing.

Dear Wrangler: Lazarus is never obtuse. All of us are in the process of becoming acquainted with His will & His ways which are in the "exceedingly above" range of all we can possibly think.

I behold death indeed defeated, but in the present progressive tense as an ongoing cascade culminating in the last enemy being destroyed by the One who eats death. And yes, it is all a matter of timing.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Hmmm. You know the answer to the question. I sense you are being obtuse, willfully ignorant.

More likely, we are looking at the same thing from slightly different viewpoints, and/or are using different terminology. Tell me how I am "...obtuse, willfully ignorant." when I state my conclusions boldly and with Scripture references in post #2816.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Thanks.
So, is it just that they do not include the word "hell", or is there more to it than that?

There is always more to it than "that." There is the word and concept of Hell, which I discovered to have come in from the pagan religions of northern Europe, but I don't discount the pagan religions surrounding the early Israelites or the early Christians...before they had contact with the "barbarian" tribes of northern Europe. As I always like to say, things get very complex when you get past the History 101 level of things.

An important concept which came into early Christianity by way of neo-Platonic churchmen, was the concept and doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. To the best of my own studies, it came in from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Without that concept, the idea of "souls" suffering for ever in torment would have been much more difficult to establish. However, even in the KJV, we see in First Corinthians 3:15, that it is a man's WORKS that are burned up, while the man is saved.

Another thing that needed to be put into place was the metaphysical, afterlife Hell and ruled over by the Devil/Satan. However, do you see what that does? It elevates him to God's rival/equal...and you end up with Heaven, ruled by God and Hell, ruled by Satan. Further, it leads to the idea that the Earth and humanity are a contested prey, fought over by the two sides. However, my study of the Bible informs me that the Cosmos is a hierarchy, with God at the top, and Satan as just a minor functionary in God's administration (see the first two chapter of Job on this).

In the end, the three theories (Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation) will be approved or dismissed by the Bible student according to the weight that student gives on various Scriptures and/or the Scriptures that student forgets, ignores or fails to comprehend. I also believe those understandings, forgettings, ignorings and fails are all part of God's Plan, and it is glorious in my view.

 

[Wrangler]

More likely, we are looking at the same thing from slightly different viewpoints, and/or are using different terminology. Tell me how I am "...obtuse, willfully ignorant." when I state my conclusions boldly and with Scripture references in post #2816.

I think you know the answer. There are verses in Scripture that support the idea that death has been defeated, in part if not whole.