Christians funding an appeal of a christian dismissed. Is it ethical or outrageously immoral

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creslaw

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But there will come a day when one must choose. Either you accept the laws of man or what God says. Jesus said. I am the way the truth and the life. Job or no job No apologies and no regrets.
Isn't it interesting that when Israel Folau has his day in court he will place his hand on the Holy Bible and say " "I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

The very Bible he was quoting in his post: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

We now have the Bible being construed as "hate speech".
 
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creslaw

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Fortunately we still have some people talking common sense here in Australia:

Gillian Triggs, the former Australian Human Rights Commission president:

"I don't think employers should have that power [to sack someone] and I don't think that one should lose one’s job for putting a view in good faith that you have put, particularly as a reflection that could be a religious view."
Gillian Triggs supports Israel Folau's right to religious expression
 
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Kate30

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Fortunately we still have some people talking common sense here in Australia:

Gillian Triggs, the former Australian Human Rights Commission president:

"I don't think employers should have that power [to sack someone] and I don't think that one should lose one’s job for putting a view in good faith that you have put, particularly as a reflection that could be a religious view."
Gillian Triggs supports Israel Folau's right to religious expression
Creslaw we can only hope that common sense does prevail.
 
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Occams Barber

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Fortunately we still have some people talking common sense here in Australia:

Gillian Triggs, the former Australian Human Rights Commission president:

"I don't think employers should have that power [to sack someone] and I don't think that one should lose one’s job for putting a view in good faith that you have put, particularly as a reflection that could be a religious view."
Gillian Triggs supports Israel Folau's right to religious expression

There are a couple of issues here.

Firstly there is the problem of how you express your views. You may think I'm ugly, but we would both agree that telling me that 'I think you're ugly' would be unacceptably offensive, even if it were true. If you must tell me, tact, diplomacy and consideration for the other, are all considerations here.

Secondly there is the issue of if, in a civil society you should make a point of telling me. You need to weigh up the virtue of honesty against the damage you're doing. Apart from destroying my self image what do you achieve and why should you make a point of telling me?

Folau has the right to religious expression as long as he observes some basic rules of human interaction. The first of these is the realisation that there is no pressing reason from my point of vew that he tell me how ugly I am. The second is, if he really must tell me, he will adopt a tactful and respectful way of doing it. We expect this of anyone. Why should a Christian have a different set of rules?

The other issue is acceptance of the reality that secular society has moved on. We no longer accept that homosexuality or same sex marriage is wrong. While I accept that you may have a different view, trying to impose your view simply will not work. Forcing the issue merely amplifies the perception of Christians as homophobic bigots.

Folau has gone out of his way to tell, and adopted a totally tactless way of doing it. Whatever his motives, he is doing far more harm than good. He is drawing Rugby into his private view of morality and Rugby, understandably, is unhappy. In the process he is offending a significant proportion of the people he, as a celebrity rugby player, represents.

This is not a religious issue. It takes in issues like tact, politeness, diplomacy and basic human decency.

As my mother once told me:
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

OB
 
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creslaw

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There are a couple of issues here.

Firstly there is the problem of how you express your views. You may think I'm ugly, but we would both agree that telling me that 'I think you're ugly' would be unacceptably offensive, even if it were true. If you must tell me, tact, diplomacy and consideration for the other, are all considerations here.

Secondly there is the issue of if, in a civil society you should make a point of telling me. You need to weigh up the virtue of honesty against the damage you're doing. Apart from destroying my self image what do you achieve and why should you make a point of telling me?

Folau has the right to religious expression as long as he observes some basic rules of human interaction. The first of these is the realisation that there is no pressing reason from my point of vew that he tell me how ugly I am. The second is, if he really must tell me, he will adopt a tactful and respectful way of doing it. We expect this of anyone. Why should a Christian have a different set of rules?

The other issue is acceptance of the reality that secular society has moved on. We no longer accept that homosexuality or same sex marriage is wrong. While I accept that you may have a different view, trying to impose your view simply will not work. Forcing the issue merely amplifies the perception of Christians as homophobic bigots.

Folau has gone out of his way to tell, and adopted a totally tactless way of doing it. Whatever his motives, he is doing far more harm than good. He is drawing Rugby into his private view of morality and Rugby, understandably, is unhappy. In the process he is offending a significant proportion of the people he, as a celebrity rugby player, represents.

This is not a religious issue. It takes in issues like tact, politeness, diplomacy and basic human decency.

As my mother once told me:
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

OB
I'm sorry to say this but your mother was wrong ... at least Jesus thinks so. Jesus described hell in greater detail than He described heaven ... and He was not reluctant to identify what qualified one for hell (Mark 7:21-23, Mark 9:43).

Folau quoted the Bible (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) in a platform he frequently used to post verses from the Bible. Those who chose to access his instagram account were aware of this and his strong religious views.

Evangelical Christianity is very focused on repentance from sin as the only way to salvation .... this is what Jesus preached ... and Peter ... and Paul ... and they were all very explicit in identifying sin and its consequences.

I remember when I first discovered my teenage daughter smoking ... I was very explicit in explaining the possible health consequences ... sometimes "nice" just doesn't cut it.
 
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KCfromNC

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You've misread the quote. Archbishop Davies is saying the right of conservative Christians to publicly express their beliefs is being denied by threats of dismissal.

If that's true, it's a pretty bad argument. I mean, the whole trouble started because Folau repeatedly publicly expressed his beliefs. Kinda weird someone would claim he wasn't able to do so in this situation.

The problem with that is freedom of religion and freedom of speech are rights; dismissal for expressing a religious belief is discrimination. Folau's comments had nothing to do with the game of rugby.
His employer disagrees. Who are you to infringe on their rights to run their business as they see fit.

Keep in mind the alternative is to prohibit firing people for religious disagreements, such as in cases like this : Openly gay teacher fired from Miami Catholic school after getting married
 
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KCfromNC

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I'm sorry to say this but your mother was wrong ... at least Jesus thinks so. Jesus described hell in greater detail than He described heaven ... and He was not reluctant to identify what qualified one for hell (Mark 7:21-23, Mark 9:43).

Folau quoted the Bible (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) in a platform he frequently used to post verses from the Bible. Those who chose to access his instagram account were aware of this and his strong religious views.

Evangelical Christianity is very focused on repentance from sin as the only way to salvation .... this is what Jesus preached ... and Peter ... and Paul ... and they were all very explicit in identifying sin and its consequences.

I remember when I first discovered my teenage daughter smoking ... I was very explicit in explaining the possible health consequences ... sometimes "nice" just doesn't cut it.
I suspect that this Christian fixation on sin is the real nub of the problem. Perhaps if you focused on your own sins and stopped pointing the finger at everyone else....
OB
 
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KCfromNC

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Zoli perhaps you should revaluate your own love of sport as you seem to think it can override religious freedom as well.

Since when does religious freedom include being able to insult minorities without consequence?

No one is stopping the guy from believing what he wants. Nor is he being thrown in jail for saying certain minorities deserve to be tortured because of who they are. Certain groups are just deciding they no longer want to pay him a bunch of money to play a game because of those things he's saying. That's not restricting his religious freedom in the slightest.

Comparing that against actual religious persecution is laughable.
 
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creslaw

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If that's true, it's a pretty bad argument. I mean, the whole trouble started because Folau repeatedly publicly expressed his beliefs. Kinda weird someone would claim he wasn't able to do so in this situation.
Archbishop Davies is making the point that employees are increasingly concerned about being dismissed if they publish religious beliefs - or indeed political beliefs - on social media that their employer finds disagreeable.

His employer disagrees. Who are you to infringe on their rights to run their business as they see fit.
We have laws about freedom of religion and unfair dismissal. We do not have freedom of religion if a person can be fired for expressing their beliefs, especially outside the work setting.

Keep in mind the alternative is to prohibit firing people for religious disagreements, such as in cases like this : Openly gay teacher fired from Miami Catholic school after getting married
The situation is very different when it involves children to whom the school owes a "loco parentis" duty of care. The parents of those children pay for the specific privilege to have their children raised according to the morality & beliefs of their church.
 
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creslaw

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I suspect that this Christian fixation on sin is the real nub of the problem. Perhaps if you focused on your own sins and stopped pointing the finger at everyone else....
OB
You are right to say Christians should be focused on their own sins (Romans 3:23) ... you know your Bible!
But you are wrong to suggest that the Bible does not urge - actually command - Jesus' followers to preach repentance & salvation to the whole world (Mark 16:15)
 
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KCfromNC

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Archbishop Davies is making the point that employees are increasingly concerned about being dismissed if they publish religious beliefs - or indeed political beliefs - on social media that their employer finds disagreeable.

Yeah, I know. I'm not arguing he doesn't have the right to be wrong.

We have laws about freedom of religion and unfair dismissal. We do not have freedom of religion if a person can be fired for expressing their beliefs, especially outside the work setting.

Yes, I understand this is what many are saying. And then they follow up with statements like this :

The situation is very different when it involves children to whom the school owes a "loco parentis" duty of care. The parents of those children pay for the specific privilege to have their children raised according to the morality & beliefs of their church.

I'm not sure how customers paying extra for companies to fire people because of a difference in religious beliefs somehow makes it any less of violation of freedom of religion. I mean, don't all businesses have paying customers?
 
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Kate30

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Since when does religious freedom include being able to insult minorities without consequence?

No one is stopping the guy from believing what he wants. Nor is he being thrown in jail for saying certain minorities deserve to be tortured because of who they are. Certain groups are just deciding they no longer want to pay him a bunch of money to play a game because of those things he's saying. That's not restricting his religious freedom in the slightest.

Comparing that against actual religious persecution is laughable.
KCfromNC I think it would be laughable If it was only a joke. But it’s not a laughable matter that’s the problem. Israel lost his his livihood on what he believes on his own instagram account . What he believes has always been there. Just because you may not like someone’s point of view doesn’t give you the right to have them dismissed from their place of employment he merely quoted what the bible says.What you may not realise is that it brings everyone’s freedom of belief into question not only religious freedom. It’s like saying a actor can longer be in movies because he believes in the gun lobby and that’s only one example of the many thousands I could give. Do you see where this is heading. Well if not do reflect apon George Orwell’s 1984 if you have read. As to minority or majority groups the bible discriminates both ways for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 
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Freodin

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Let's see.
When I registered here, I agreed to the rules of this forum. A code of conduct, if you want.
It might even have changed during the time I am active here... by my continued presence and participation, I am still bound by it.

So, if I were to declare my deeply held faith that all Christians should be fed to the lions, and got an official reprimand for that... perhaps even a ban...

... then the correct "Christian" way to deal with that would be to a) sue Christian Forums for suppressing my right to free speech and religious liberty, and b) ask everyone to send me money for that.

Hm...


P.S. I am not even a millionaire.

P.P.S. It is not my deeply held faith that all Christians should be fed to the lions.

P.P.P.S. SEND ME MONEY!
 
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creslaw

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I'm not sure how customers paying extra for companies to fire people because of a difference in religious beliefs somehow makes it any less of violation of freedom of religion. I mean, don't all businesses have paying customers?
A school situation involves children ... children that are obliged to attend school by law. Protection of children by their parents is not controversial.

A religious school exists for the purpose of teaching children in a specific moral context.

A professional sporting club does not involve children and it allows for the expression of a diversity of religious beliefs. It allows people to have personal views about (eg) abortion, euthanasia, climate change, homosexuality ...
 
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Kate30

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Let's see.
When I registered here, I agreed to the rules of this forum. A code of conduct, if you want.
It might even have changed during the time I am active here... by my continued presence and participation, I am still bound by it.

So, if I were to declare my deeply held faith that all Christians should be fed to the lions, and got an official reprimand for that... perhaps even a ban...

... then the correct "Christian" way to deal with that would be to a) sue Christian Forums for suppressing my right to free speech and religious liberty, and b) ask everyone to send me money for that.

Hm...


P.S. I am not even a millionaire.

P.P.S. It is not my deeply held faith that all Christians should be fed to the lions.

P.P.P.S. SEND ME MONEY!
Freodin what Israel wrote was on his own Instagram account. We have been fed to the lions before. Sadly I’m sure there are those who would like to see that again
 
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creslaw

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Freodin what Israel wrote was on his own Instagram account. We have been fed to the lions before. Sadly I’m sure there are those who would like to see that again

metaphorical lions ... I hope
 
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RDKirk

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Has anyone quoted the contract detail or are we guessing he was in breach.

He must consider he was not in breach to mount a serious legal case.

Should faithful believers accept a gag on their beliefs?

Did the first disciples choose between God and man when spreading their beliefs publicly.

That's all discussed thoroughly in the other thread.
 
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Freodin

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Freodin what Israel wrote was on his own Instagram account.
Well... that's the problem of being a figure of public interest, and making tons of money from being a figure of public interest: what you say tends to be of... public interest.

We have been fed to the lions before. Sadly I’m sure there are those who would like to see that again
"The others" - everyone that Christians don't like - have been persecuted, attacked, tortured, killed before. Sadly there are still those who still do it and don't want anything more than make it common again.

It's time they are stopped... as well as those who think that not having a multi-million dollar job or being excluded from a high-prestige university is "persecution".
 
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