Is The Son Less Than The Father?

[Grip Docility]

Actually if we let Jesus speak for himself, it's clear that he speaks of himself in a subordinate role in reference to the Father.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

John 17:2 "you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

Philippians 2... His condescension was by His own will. He is Equal.

Also, He has the Highest Name in all of scripture.

Philippians 2:5-11 (John 5:39-40)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

Arians forget in their heresy that the hierarchy structure in the kingdom of God is turned on it's head, those who serve are great. So they're measuring greatness by the wrong standard.

 

[Grip Docility]

Arians forget in their heresy that the hierarchy structure in the kingdom of God is turned on it's head, those who serve are great. So they're measuring greatness by the wrong standard.

How Arians get through John’s writings and think He’s not God ... Blows my mind!

The Created all things Visible and Invisible part... Everywhere... should be a dead give away...!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

How Arians get through John’s writings and think He’s not God ... Blows my mind!

The Created all things Visible and Invisible part... Everywhere... should be a dead give away...!

Should be, but people can only believe this if God brings them to faith.

 

[Grip Docility]

Should be, but people can only believe this if God brings them to faith.

The entire works trip does keep the blinders on.

 

[PaulCyp1]

The Son is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God by definition is infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent, all-knowing, etc. There cannot be different levels of "infinitely". If Jesus was any less powerful than the Father, or any less intelligent, or any less knowing, He would not be God. Even when He became a man 2,000 years ago, and therefore accepted the limitations of human nature, He did not cease being God, as He plainly demonstrated by constantly doing things only God could do.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Thus, we see the argument of scripture and tradition and council.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

says Who?

Jesus says the Father is greater than Him.

All of the Chiefs of the Joint Staff share the same authority but one is supreme to the others.

Two privates have the same authority, but if they are in the same room alone, one has a greater authority.

Yeah, so not about authority, it's about service.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Actually if we let Jesus speak for himself, it's clear that he speaks of himself in a subordinate role in reference to the Father.

John 14:28 "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

John 17:2 "you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."

A Subordinate role is a form of service, those who are greatest among you will be your slave.

 

[Grip Docility]

A Subordinate role is a form of service, those who are greatest among you will be your slave.

The ONE Who’s sandals we are not fit to tie or untie, washed our feet.

 

[Athanasius377]

Good thread. I’m not sure if @Tree of Life church recites the Athanasian Creed and being the the Friday after Trinity Sunday the creed reads :”Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ.”

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

As far a Jesus Christ is in sync with Father, he is also the Father. Consubtantial. Being in sync would mean a perfect adherence to Teleology the will of God, maximising the utility of creation. And crucially(crucifixion...) opening the gates of Salvation to other people.

Co-eternal. Co-equal. Co-equivalent. Begotten. Created. I'm not sure and in what contexts.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Was Jesus praying to himself? When Jesus said, “why do you call me good? No one is good except the father” was he talking about himself?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

In terms of redemptive history the Son did this. But this is not as God is in himself. This submission does not describe their relationship from all eternity.

Where are you finding this information at. Can you show me clear scripture that says what you just said? I always thought be people just had different beliefs about the trinity but no one was actually for certain. Maybe I’m wrong and done one can show the certainty.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Greater in what sense? Greater in power? No. Greater in authority? No. Greater in knowledge? No. The Father is greater than Jesus in the sense of Jesus' human nature, but not according to his divine nature.



To say that the Father has more authority than the Son is to imply that the Son is less God than the Father.

Where are you getting your information from?

 

[RichardY]

Was Jesus praying to himself? When Jesus said, “why do you call me good? No one is good except the father” was he talking about himself?

Was he in sync with Father? It is possible to be in sync with something, without being it. Row well and live.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Jesus says the Father is greater. No one can unsay that or argue it away.

Tree of Life points out the tar-baby nature of scripture.

Was he in sync with Father? It is possible to be in sync with something, without being it. Row well and live.

huh? So he wasn’t actually praying to the father? He was just in sync?.... when he said the father is greater then him he was just in sync but didn’t really mean the father is greater?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

The Son is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God by definition is infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent, all-knowing, etc. There cannot be different levels of "infinitely". If Jesus was any less powerful than the Father, or any less intelligent, or any less knowing, He would not be God. Even when He became a man 2,000 years ago, and therefore accepted the limitations of human nature, He did not cease being God, as He plainly demonstrated by constantly doing things only God could do.

But he said the father is greater.... are we to just ignore it?

 

[truefiction1]

says Who?

Jesus says the Father is greater than Him.

All of the Chiefs of the Joint Staff share the same authority but one is supreme to the others.

Two privates have the same authority, but if they are in the same room alone, one has a greater authority.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit operate, eternally, as if they are one person. The Son (Logos) is the cognitive (reasoning) aspect of the Trinity, the Spirit is the affective (feeling) aspect of the Trinity, and the Father is the One Who generates (begets) His Logos and also the One from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. There is no place to speak of authority in the Holy Trinity. It's not appropriate to speak of the relationships between the Father, Word, and Spirit in terms of one having authority over the other. Their relationships are in perfect harmony within the perfect Tri-unity. It is only the humanity of the Divine Word that submits itself to the perfect will of God, which is the will of the Father, Word, and Spirit alike.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

But he said the father is greater.... are we to just ignore it?

You're the greatest, no, you're the greatest.

No, you're the greatest ...

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. (Philippians 2:3)

 

[RichardY]

huh? So he wasn’t actually praying to the father? He was just in sync?.... when he said the father is greater then him he was just in sync but didn’t really mean the father is greater?

Ok an example: an online gamer is not necessarily in sync with the server(The Ultimate server -God) If the gamer disconnects or goes out of sync the server, the server is still there. The gamer, can however rejoin or connect. Either the server can connect with the gamer(resurrection). Or the gamer can reconnect with the server(repentance).

As off shoots, not tributaries(souls) at the mouth of the main river(God), we can follow the example of the rower on the main river(Christ).