Is The Son Less Than The Father?

[Tree of Life]

Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

 

[A_Thinker]

Am I "less than" my father ? No.

And yet, I cede authority to him ... and we walk together in accord ...

 

[Tree of Life]

Am I "less than" my father ? No.

And yet, I cede authority to him ... and we walk together in accord ...

The Son submitted to the Father in his mission on earth and in his human nature, but the divine Son is equal with the Father in every way, including authority.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Yet he submitted to His Father and cede authority to Him.

 

[RichardY]

As far a Jesus Christ is in sync with Father, he is also the Father. Consubtantial. Being in sync would mean a perfect adherence to Teleology the will of God, maximising the utility of creation. And crucially(crucifixion...) opening the gates of Salvation to other people.

Co-eternal. Co-equal. Co-equivalent. Begotten. Created. I'm not sure and in what contexts.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yet he submitted to His Father and cede authority to Him.

In terms of redemptive history the Son did this. But this is not as God is in himself. This submission does not describe their relationship from all eternity.

 

[RaymondG]

"28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Great truth in this idea, if one only stops looking for the false.....

 

[Not David]

Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

I agree with the thread but what's the goal of it if at least on paper everyone here agrees.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

In terms of redemptive history the Son did this. But this is not as God is in himself. This submission does not describe their relationship from all eternity.

says Who?

Jesus says the Father is greater than Him.

All of the Chiefs of the Joint Staff share the same authority but one is supreme to the others.

Two privates have the same authority, but if they are in the same room alone, one has a greater authority.

 

[eleos1954]

"28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Great truth in this idea, if one only stops looking for the false.....

Agree ... and there is also this:

1st Corinthians 15

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.

 

[Tree of Life]

I agree with the thread but what's the goal of it if at least on paper everyone here agrees.

I think you'll find that few agree.

 

[Tree of Life]

says Who?

Jesus says the Father is greater than Him.

Greater in what sense? Greater in power? No. Greater in authority? No. Greater in knowledge? No. The Father is greater than Jesus in the sense of Jesus' human nature, but not according to his divine nature.

All of the Chiefs of the Joint Staff share the same authority but one is supreme to the others.

Two privates have the same authority, but if they are in the same room alone, one has a greater authority.

To say that the Father has more authority than the Son is to imply that the Son is less God than the Father.

 

[URA]

Ah, yes, another post on the Trinity; centuries of debate, a Church council to settle it once & for all, and yet, Christians don't learn from history, and people pull our Bible verses to "disprove" one of the most fundamental aspects of our faith.

I do appreciate the way you did this post, bringing up heresy & a bit of rebuttal. Still, I wanted to vent for a bit about the debates that still go on about the Trinity, anf share a few videos that attempt to explain the Trinity; they do a good job of explaining it quickly, and I dig the background music!

May God bless us all & lead us all to fullness of His truth; have peace & pray!

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Jesus says the Father is greater. No one can unsay that or argue it away.

Tree of Life points out the tar-baby nature of scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[A_Thinker]

To say that the Father has more authority than the Son is to imply that the Son is less God than the Father.

That's a conclusion ... reached by a finite human mind ...

 

[Grip Docility]

Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

Philippians 2...

No. ... Only willingly, by Choice... for the purpose of Salvation. (Isaiah 43:11 ; Luke 2:11)

God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God the Father.... Co-Equal... Uncreated... One...Three.

To have seen the Son is to have seen the Father, yet no one but the Son “sees” the Father.

 

[A_Thinker]

Philippians 2...

No. ... Only willingly, by Choice... for the purpose of Salvation. (Isaiah 43:11 ; Luke 2:11)

Yes ... for Their JOINT accomplishment ...

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes ... for Their JOINT accomplishment ...

That’s a major AMEN!

“Jesus is LORD”.

 

[bcbsr]

Since at least the time of Arius, heretics have arisen within the church saying that the Bible teaches that the Son is somehow less than the Father. Many of them have appealed to John's gospel in order to try to establish this teaching. One such text is John 5:19-20 which says:

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

The Arians taught that this verse meant that Jesus was less than the Father since he was dependent upon the Father. Jesus could only imitate the Father and could do nothing on his own.

But Augustine, Hilary, Athanasius, Cyril, and others taught that this verse meant something very different. It's not that the Son depends on the Father in a subservient and powerless sense. But it is that the Son is perfectly united to the Father. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. In this sense, the Son does nothing alone because everything the Son does, the Father does. And everything the Father does, the Son does.

Actually if we let Jesus speak for himself, it's clear that he speaks of himself in a subordinate role in reference to the Father.

John 14:28 "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

John 17:2 "you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."