Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[ebedmelech]

No, it doesn't. Scripture clearly says the thousand years ends.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

That is correct. I was just reading that and was going to correct it but you had already responded. The thousand years are an undetermined amount of time, that ends at the coming of Christ in judgement.

Christians are currently engaged in spiritual warfare in this world...and it will continue until Christ returns. Ephesians 6:10-17 makes that pretty clear. We have the same charge as Paul gave Timothy at 1 Timothy 6:13-16:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen

To think Christ doesn't rule all things is to deny that which is clear in scripture.

 

[ebedmelech]

Not according to Christ who says in Rev 2 the rod of iron rule only starts after he has returned and he hasn't returned yet so that specific period of rule has not yet started.

Revelation 2:26-29 doesn't say what you think it says...here it is for you to read
26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

This was stated to the church at Thyatira. Jesus said He grants the overcomer to rule. He clearly says He already has authority. His "coming" here, is coming in judgment of Jerusalem it's not His second coming which is final judgement of the world.

 

[ewq1938]

That is correct. I was just reading that and was going to correct it but you had already responded. The thousand years are an undetermined amount of time, that ends at the coming of Christ in judgement.

Naw...it's a very determined amount of time and Christ returned before it begins not after it ends. He says that specifically in the ending verses of Rev 2 so we know without a doubt he returns before the thousand years begins.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

 

[ewq1938]

His "coming" here, is coming in judgment of Jerusalem it's not His second coming which is final judgement of the world.

There's only one second coming not two (a third). Jesus' second coming was not in Ad70. The rod of iron rule over the nations does not begin until the real and only second coming happens and that's still a future event.

 

[ebedmelech]

Naw...it's a very determined amount of time and Christ returned before it begins not after it ends. He says that specifically in the ending verses of Rev 2 so we know without a doubt he returns before the thousand years begins.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

This holds no context at all to Revelation 2. These churches are already experiencing tribulation. We know that because of what John said at Revelation 1:9:

9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

This is the context! The tribulation is active and ongoing against God's people, and John has been banished on Patmos where Christ angel appears to him to give him the Revelation. What you have cited is definitely not the second coming.

More appropriate is Revelation 19 where the harlot, which is Jerusalem has been judged. What you're citing in Revelation 2, is Jesus preparing these churches that they can endure the tribulation that is occurring...and it leads up to the destruction of Jerusalem as well as Israel being exiled among the nations.

The "overcoming" is to those who endure in Christ regardless of the time they live in...they overcome in Christ, which is cited in Revelation 19 after the harlot has been judged. There is no overcoming unless one is in Christ...cleary taught by Paul at Romans 8:28-39. It takes ALL of scripture to get the true picture.

 

[ebedmelech]

There's only one second coming not two (a third). Jesus' second coming was not in Ad70. The rod of iron rule over the nations does not begin until the real and only second coming happens and that's still a future event.

I have never said the second coming was AD70...you assume that. I said AD70 was a "judgement coming" of Christ on Jerusalem.

This is your problem with what you're saying:

We know in the Olivet Discourse Jesus says He comes in "power and great glory"...this is Matthew 24:28-31. Jesus here clearly cites Isaiah 13:10 at Matthew 24:29. If you go to Isaiah 13, what you find happening there is the judgement of Babylon, which come at the hands of the Medes, which God uses to judge Babylon. That is a "judgment coming" of God. This is why Jesus cites Isaiah 13! The judgment coming of Christ on Jerusalem will come at the hands of Rome.

The Second coming of Christ is at Matthew 25:31-48

 

[Tayla]

evelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This 1,000 years already occurred. It started with Jesus' death and resurrection, and ended 1,000 years later. As an ammillennial, I agree there is no 1,000 year physical earthly kingdom before the second coming.

 

[Tayla]

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

There will be a literal earthly New Heavens and New Earth for eternity which the redeemed will inhabit. All prophecies about the glorious miraculous utopia to come are about this, as are the passages specifically mentioning "new heavens" and "new earth".

 

[ewq1938]

What you have cited is definitely not the second coming.

It is a reference to the second coming and what happens after that. He comes, the end happens which is the end of the age before the Millennial age, and overcomers are given the power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

 

[ewq1938]

I have never said the second coming was AD70...you assume that. I said AD70 was a "judgement coming" of Christ on Jerusalem.

That's still a second coming which is false and did not happen in Ad70. Christ only coming of judgment is when he returns with the resurrected saints and angels and those he raptured to the clouds.

 

[ebedmelech]

It is a reference to the second coming and what happens after that. He comes, the end happens which is the end of the age before the Millennial age, and overcomers are given the power to rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

That's still a second coming which is false and did not happen in Ad70. Christ only coming of judgment is when he returns with the resurrected saints and angels and those he raptured to the clouds.

If you think so. I'll hold to my viewpoint, as I'm sure you'll hold to yours. Time will tell.

 

[jerry kelso]

Great thread.
Jesus seemed to imply that the Kingdom of God was going to appear after the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I am saying to ye, that the Kingdom of God shall be being taken-away from Ye , and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Luke 19:11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.
Luke 21:31“So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that the Kingdom of God shall be being taken-away from Ye, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Kingdom of God Part 1
KINGDOM OF GOD — KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

There are many strange ideas around about the difference between the terms “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven”. It has been taught that the Kingdom of God is spiritual and heavenly, whereas the Kingdom of Heaven is temporal and earthly, and that the two cannot be mixed. Actually, if there were any truth in that, it still sounds backwards!
Some say that the Kingdom of God is an eternal kingdom of God over all and that the Kingdom of Heaven is an earthly and temporal program, some future divine dynasty to be established on earth, and that it is of special significance only to the Jews, who, still awaiting their Messiah, will see His righteous government in control of the world, and in their hands, during the Millennium.
Others assume that the Kingdom of Heaven means a kingdom in heaven, so they are waiting to die so they can go to their kingdom in heaven where they intend to spend eternity strumming harps and dancing up and down the streets of gold.

Ignorant men have long tried to make a distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven, as though they were two separate kingdoms. They often explain that the Kingdom of Heaven embraces the “Church age” and the Kingdom of God will be set up during the “Millennium”.
The simple truth is that the two terms are used interchangeably in numerous places in scripture. To cite only a few of several examples, when Matthew recorded the Sermon on the Mount he quoted Jesus as saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” But when Luke recorded the same saying of Jesus he said, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.” Again, Matthew quoted the Lord, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the law and the prophets prophesied until John” (Mat. 11:12-13). Luke says, “The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it” (Lk. 16:16). In these two passages the messenger spoken of in both cases is John.
His message was said to begin where the law and the prophets left off. His message was announcing a kingdom. In one passage that kingdom is called the Kingdom of God, while in the other it is called the Kingdom of Heaven. The time was the same, the man was the same, the message was the same, and the kingdom was the same in both cases.

Our Lord’s instructions upon sending out the twelve were, according to Matthew, “And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mat. 10:7). According to Luke, “He sent them forth to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick” (Lk. 9:2). Certainly Jesus did not preach two conflicting messages at the same time! Certainly He was not announcing two separate and distinct kingdoms and declaring them both to be at hand! These, and many other passages, show the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are one and the same. Yet — there is a difference! God does not have TWO KINGDOMS — He has only ONE.

There is not one Kingdom of God and another Kingdom of Heaven. There is only one Kingdom. However each of these two terms is not without its special significance. For, you see, heaven is a REALM and God is a PERSON. The Kingdom has its origin in the REALM OF HEAVEN, and in the PERSON OF GOD. The term “Kingdom of Heaven” denotes, on the one hand, from whence (from what place, location, realm or dimension) the Kingdom proceeds, while the term “Kingdom of God” reveals, on the other hand, from whom (from what person or being) the Kingdom originates.
When we consider these two items, place and person, it immediately follows that as to REALM the Kingdom is out of the heavenlies, but as to PERSON the Kingdom comes from God. It is called the Kingdom OF God because it is from and by God. He is the Instigator and Head of the Kingdom. It is called the Kingdom OF Heaven because it has its inception in heaven — the invisible realm of Spirit.

little lambofJesus,

1. Matthew 24:31 is talking about the spiritual aspect of the KoG. The nation bringing the fruits thereof was prophetic to the church.
Paul in Acts 28 left the Jews for they would not listen to his message and he went to the Gentiles who would hear him.
In Ephesians 2:14-15; explains to the Corinthian Jews about the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body alike.
In Romans 11:11; the church is to make the Jews jealous for God.

2. The KoH and the KoG both have physical and spiritual aspects.
Basiliea is Greek meaning a realm or region governed by a King.
The KoH is only in Matthew in relation to Christ being Jehovah’s King. The plural Heaven’s in all these messages has the phrase KoH means kingdom from the Heavens.
It’s a dispensation term for the Messianic kingdom reign on earth. It is not from or out of this world. The sovereignty comes from Heaven for the King is from there John 18:36.

3. The best way to understand is that Jesus said he came to seek and save that which was lost. What was lost? The KoH physical and the spiritual KoG.
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden which would be the KoH physical when they sinned and lost the spiritual rule of God in their hearts.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG was restored at Calvary.
The physical rule of the KoG earthly reign was rejected by the Jews in the days of Jesus and will not be restored until the 2nd coming when they say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord Matthew 23:39.

4. The KoH physical aspect is the KoH reign on earth 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which is the earthly sphere of the universal physical KoG and the spiritual aspect of the KoH are things contained in the kingdom, Matthew 13.
The physical KoG is the whole universe of which the earthly sphere of the KoH is jus a part and is out of harmony with the physical KoG.
This is why God will be all in all in 1 Corinthians 15:28.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG is spiritual.
In Matthew 6:33; seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
In Luke 17:20 the KoG comes without observation...v21 the KoG is within you.
The Jews were never told to seek the KoH for salvation.
These are the biblical distinctions.

5. There is one main kingdom overall which is the KoG. This doesn’t dismiss the fact of the distinctions being real.
An example is; there is only one USA but it has 50 different states that make up the one whole country.

6. The earthly kingdom reign is all through the Old Testament which deals with the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants Genesis 12-15; I Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28 etc.
There is more scriptures but it is late.Jerry Kelso

 

[ebedmelech]

The above is an erroneous view of "the Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God"! They are synonymous terms.

Here's a great link that shows the facts:
Kingdom of God Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

As a young Christian, back in 1988, I was taught they were different but the more I read the more I was convinced there was no difference.

 

[jerry kelso]

The above is an erroneous view of "the Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God"! They are synonymous terms.

Here's a great link that shows the facts:
Kingdom of God Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

As a young Christian, back in 1988, I was taught they were different but the more I read the more I was convinced there was no difference.

ebedmelech,

1. I’ve already have heard the objections the article listed.
What is missing is the real point of why Matthew used the term Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God versus Luke.
Matthew is about Jehovah’s King. Luke is about his humanity.

2. The author of the article believes Jesus taught the New Covenant because of Luke 16:16; the law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Vs. 17; and it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matthew 11:12; and from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven sufferers violence and the violent taketh it by force.
Vs. 13; for all the law prophets prophesied until John.
This is not a different institution from old covenant to new covenant.
Jesus taught the law of Moses and lived the law in the message of the KoH and KoG. It wasn’t till the Jewish nation rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39 that Jesus started getting his disciples ready for what was to come with the Holy Spirit being sent as John 16.
Jesus would have been declared a false teacher from the beginning if he was teaching and living a different message than the Torah.
Also, Peter didn’t know what the New Covenant was in Matthew 16:22-23 and John 6 when Jesus started telling them more plainly about his death and resurrection Matthew 16:21.

3. Going back to Matthew 11:12-13; the prophets prophesied until John. They didn’t have to prophesy anymore because Jesus the reality was there to settle the physical kingdom which was prophesied all through the Old Testament.
Matthew starts with the line of Abraham and David. These two covenants had to do with the physical land and kingdom for Israel. 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; 2 Samuel
7:13-16; Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Matthew 5:5.
The way for a Jew to make an entrance was the spiritual aspect of the KoG such as in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 18:20-21.

4. Isaiah 53 shows a suffering Savior and this is what Israel missed. This doesn’t mean that the kingdom offer wasn’t valid.
Jesus had to offer the physical kingdom because it is all tied into the restoration of the land and kingdom.
Jesus knew the prophecies and scripture never prophesied that Israel would accept him.
The church was ordained to bring the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles which happened at Calvary and that Paul brought out in Ephesians 2:14-15.

5. Matthew 5:13 Jesus said Israel was the salt of the earth and was no good it lost its savor and to be trodden under the feet of men. This could not be talking about the church for Jesus said the gates of Hell shall never prevail against it.
The message of the KoH and KoG was only for the Jews Matthew 10:6-7.

6. One has to understand the historical context of the Jews under the law of Moses before one can understand what it means to a new covenant believer.
I will say that for you to think that this position is erroneous shows that you may be lacking understanding of the true context of this teaching according to the scripture especially if you believe in New Covenant theology in the KoH and KoG message under the age of the law of Moses.
I need to stop here because it is getting late. I will be back tomorrow. Jerry Kelso

 

[ebedmelech]

ebedmelech,

1. I’ve already have heard the objections the article listed.
What is missing is the real point of why Matthew used the term Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God versus Luke.
Matthew is about Jehovah’s King. Luke is about his humanity.

No Matthew's Gospel is really written to the Jew...Luke's Gospel is written to Gentiles. It's that simple.

2. The author of the article believes Jesus taught the New Covenant because of Luke 16:16; the law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Vs. 17; and it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matthew 11:12; and from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven sufferers violence and the violent taketh it by force.
Vs. 13; for all the law prophets prophesied until John.
This is not a different institution from old covenant to new covenant.
Jesus taught the law of Moses and lived the law in the message of the KoH and KoG. It wasn’t till the Jewish nation rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39 that Jesus started getting his disciples ready for what was to come with the Holy Spirit being sent as John 16.
Jesus would have been declared a false teacher from the beginning if he was teaching and living a different message than the Torah.
Also, Peter didn’t know what the New Covenant was in Matthew 16:22-23 and John 6 when Jesus started telling them more plainly about his death and resurrection Matthew 16:21.

No. Jerry...you're simply attempting to explain away the facts. Do you forget God prophesied the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31? As far as Peter, that makes no point...most of Israel didn't know. When the leaders ( Pharissees, Sadducees, and Scribes) don't know...and they're who the people look to for guidance, how could they know? How about 1 Corinthians 2:8 for that matter?

3. Going back to Matthew 11:12-13; the prophets prophesied until John. They didn’t have to prophesy anymore because Jesus the reality was there to settle the physical kingdom which was prophesied all through the Old Testament.
Matthew starts with the line of Abraham and David. These two covenants had to do with the physical land and kingdom for Israel. 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; 2 Samuel
7:13-16; Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Matthew 5:5.
The way for a Jew to make an entrance was the spiritual aspect of the KoG such as in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 18:20-21.

To that I'll just invite you to read Hebrews 9. It annihilates what you're saying here. Jesus came in "the fullness of time" Jerry. He fulfilled the Law for us. Something He had to do to be acceptable as the Passover Lamb. The KOG/KOH are both spiritual and physical. We believers are physically the KOG/KOH. What you can't see is spiritual...in God's presence.

4. Isaiah 53 shows a suffering Savior and this is what Israel missed. This doesn’t mean that the kingdom offer wasn’t valid.
Jesus had to offer the physical kingdom because it is all tied into the restoration of the land and kingdom.
Jesus knew the prophecies and scripture never prophesied that Israel would accept him.
The church was ordained to bring the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles which happened at Calvary and that Paul brought out in Ephesians 2:14-15.

Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. What's your point here? He saved the OT saints and the NT saints. They looked forward to the Cross, we look back at it. All of Israel didn't miss on Christ either...so that's not valid.

5. Matthew 5:13 Jesus said Israel was the salt of the earth and was no good it lost its savor and to be trodden under the feet of men. This could not be talking about the church for Jesus said the gates of Hell shall never prevail against it.
The message of the KoH and KoG was only for the Jews Matthew 10:6-7.

In the Beatitudes, Jesus is re-teaching the people...why do you think He said many times "you have heard t said?" He came to set the captives free Jerry...they were captive to they're leaders teaching, something Jesus read them the riot act on starting at Matthew 23:13.

6. One has to understand the historical context of the Jews under the law of Moses before one can understand what it means to a new covenant believer.
I will say that for you to think that this position is erroneous shows that you may be lacking understanding of the true context of this teaching according to the scripture especially if you believe in New Covenant theology in the KoH and KoG message under the age of the law of Moses.
I need to stop here because it is getting late. I will be back tomorrow. Jerry Kelso

No Jerry, the lack is in the teaching you've accepted. Once again, try Hebrews 9. It lays out clearly why Christ came with a New Covenant.

 

[jerry kelso]

No Matthew's Gospel is really written to the Jew...Luke's Gospel is written to Gentiles. It's that simple.


No. Jerry...you're simply attempting to explain away the facts. Do you forget God prophesied the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31? As far as Peter, that makes no point...most of Israel didn't know. When the leaders ( Pharissees, Sadducees, and Scribes) don't know...and they're who the people look to for guidance, how could they know? How about 1 Corinthians 2:8 for that matter?


To that I'll just invite you to read Hebrews 9. It annihilates what you're saying here. Jesus came in "the fullness of time" Jerry. He fulfilled the Law for us. Something He had to do to be acceptable as the Passover Lamb. The KOG/KOH are both spiritual and physical. We believers are physically the KOG/KOH. What you can't see is spiritual...in God's presence.


Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. What's your point here? He saved the OT saints and the NT saints. They looked forward to the Cross, we look back at it. All of Israel didn't miss on Christ either...so that's not valid.


In the Beatitudes, Jesus is re-teaching the people...why do you think He said many times "you have heard t said?" He came to set the captives free Jerry...they were captive to they're leaders teaching, something Jesus read them the riot act on starting at Matthew 23:13.


No Jerry, the lack is in the teaching you've accepted. Once again, try Hebrews 9. It lays out clearly why Christ came with a New Covenant.

ebedlemech,

1. The proper perspective is that when Adam and Eve sinned the soul had to be restored and the land had to be restored.
This is a fact of scripture that cannot be refuted.
Genesis 3:15 was the first Messianic prophecy that would be fulfilled at the Cross and it was. This is a scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

2. Jesus didn’t bring the New Covenant in his earthly message concerning the KoH or the KoG to the Jewish nation.
These two kingdoms had to be restored from when Adam and Eve sinned.
These were to be restored through the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
The spiritual rule through salvation was restored at Calvary.
The grace component was contained in both covenants; Abrahamic and Davidic.
The land promised to the Jewish nation specifically as well as the physical reign over the nations will not happen until the second coming.
These are all scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.

3. Jesus didn’t bring the New Covenant through his teachings to the people under the kingdom message.
He was the New Covenant and by his blood was remission for sins. This was after his earthly ministry to the Jews.
This is another scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

4. Hebrews 9;16-17 talks about the testament is no good without the death of the testator. This is a scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

5. Jesus came to seek those who were lost. However, his ministry and covenant was to and with the Jews because the gentiles had no covenant at that time.

6. The Jews were backslidden in their covenant.
The Sermon on the Mount said Blessed are they that mourn. Mourn means to repent.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This had to do with inheriting the kingdom promises in their covenant. They were supposed to be pure in heart and the peacemakers etc. in order to be blessed.
They had to believe in Jesus as Messiah and Saviorto gain entrance into the Physical Kingdom.
They knew nothing about the death, burial and resurrection during the kingdom message. Jesus didn’t teach it. Now it would all be connected just as in John 3, but not vehicle to accept Messiah at that time.
The times about the finished work of Christ at that time must be properly understood in their respective context.

7. Jesus had to fulfill the law and he had to live it perfectly in order to fulfill it. He had to live free from sin also which means he had to do all of the Old Testament commandments which he did.
These are scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.

8. Jeremiah 31 was prophesied about the Jewish nation but they rejected him as a nation and though the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary, the Jewish nation has not accepted it and they are still backslidden. Also, 70 A.D. shows the same which was a prophecy by Jesus in Matthew 24. These are scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.
I am out of time but I’ll be back later on.
Jerry Kelso

 

[ebedmelech]

ebedlemech,

1. The proper perspective is that when Adam and Eve sinned the soul had to be restored and the land had to be restored.
This is a fact of scripture that cannot be refuted.
Genesis 3:15 was the first Messianic prophecy that would be fulfilled at the Cross and it was. This is a scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

Sure it can. There was no Old Covenant at the time God gave the "proto evangel". The land became part of the Old Covenant. The proto evangel is the promise of Christ.

2. Jesus didn’t bring the New Covenant in his earthly message concerning the KoH or the KoG to the Jewish nation.
These two kingdoms had to be restored from when Adam and Eve sinned.
These were to be restored through the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
The spiritual rule through salvation was restored at Calvary.
The grace component was contained in both covenants; Abrahamic and Davidic.
The land promised to the Jewish nation specifically as well as the physical reign over the nations will not happen until the second coming.
These are all scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.

Well...I'm gonna refute them with scripture:

* Jesus came to bring the New Covenant which was promised at Jeremiah 31. Try reading Hebrews 8:7-13. This is the foreknowledge of God at work. He told Moses at Deuteronomy 31:14-18 Israel would break the Old Covenant...and they did.

* Adam and Eve were all there was...there were no kingdoms then...just Adam and Eve.

* The Abrahamic Covenant is fully discussed in Romans 4 by Paul...so you're flat wrong on that. The Davidic Covenant is the promise of Christ...why do you think Matthew's Gospel starts out "The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham"?

* The "spiritual rule" is errant theology...Jesus knew Abraham...He said clearly "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he was glad"...how do you think that happened?

* The grace component was waaaay before the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. Remember this..."But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord"? Furthermore how did anything but God's grace save Adam and Eve? Adam is called the "son of God". Clearly, he's right there in Christ genealogy. Do you trust your theology or scripture Jerry? Everyone who has been saved, and will be saved were in Christ before the foundation of the world.

*The land promise ended with the Old Covenant...and there is no land promise in the New Covenant.

3. Jesus didn’t bring the New Covenant through his teachings to the people under the kingdom message.
He was the New Covenant and by his blood was remission for sins. This was after his earthly ministry to the Jews.
This is another scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

This too can be refuted with scripture:
Jesus didn't have to do that...remember what John said at John 1:11-13? Read that..and understand the New Covenant came so that "to as many as received Him, He gave them THE RIGHT to become children of God"!!! It is through Israel rejection of Christ, that the New Covenant came...more of God's foreknowledge.

4. Hebrews 9;16-17 talks about the testament is no good without the death of the testator. This is a scriptural fact that cannot be refuted.

No need to refute that Jerry. The point of Hebrews 9 is the superiority of Christ and the New Covenant, over the Old Covenant. Try reading all of it.

5. Jesus came to seek those who were lost. However, his ministry and covenant was to and with the Jews because the gentiles had no covenant at that time.

After Adam and Eve sinned everyone ever born of them was lost Jerry. Furthermore, if you read Exodus 12:43-50, you'd know Gentiles became Jews all the time. Ever read about the many Gentiles became Jews in Esther 8:17 Jerry? They did it by obeying Exodus 12:43-50!!!

6. The Jews were backslidden in their covenant.
The Sermon on the Mount said Blessed are they that mourn. Mourn means to repent.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This had to do with inheriting the kingdom promises in their covenant. They were supposed to be pure in heart and the peacemakers etc. in order to be blessed.
They had to believe in Jesus as Messiah and Saviorto gain entrance into the Physical Kingdom.
They knew nothing about the death, burial and resurrection during the kingdom message. Jesus didn’t teach it. Now it would all be connected just as in John 3, but not vehicle to accept Messiah at that time.
The times about the finished work of Christ at that time must be properly understood in their respective context.

This is Jeremiah 11:9-10
9 Then the Lord said to me, “A conspiracy has been found among the men of Judah and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They have turned back to the iniquities of their ancestors who refused to hear My words, and they have gone after other gods to serve them; the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers.”

This is Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

You say they were backslidden...BUT...God says they broke the covenant...and Jesus institutes a New Covenant. This is Matthew 26:26-28:
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
You're wrong on this Jerry.

7. Jesus had to fulfill the law and he had to live it perfectly in order to fulfill it. He had to live free from sin also which means he had to do all of the Old Testament commandments which he did.
These are scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.

I think I made that point already.

8. Jeremiah 31 was prophesied about the Jewish nation but they rejected him as a nation and though the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary, the Jewish nation has not accepted it and they are still backslidden. Also, 70 A.D. shows the same which was a prophecy by Jesus in Matthew 24. These are scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.
I am out of time but I’ll be back later on.
Jerry Kelso

One more time Jerry...at Jeremiah 31:32 God cleary says Israel and Judah broke the covenant He made with their fathers...you say they were backslidden?

 

[jerry kelso]

Sure it can. There was no Old Covenant at the time God gave the "proto evangel". The land became part of the Old Covenant. The proto evangel is the promise of Christ.



Well...I'm gonna refute them with scripture:

* Jesus came to bring the New Covenant which was promised at Jeremiah 31. Try reading Hebrews 8:7-13. This is the foreknowledge of God at work. He told Moses at Deuteronomy 31:14-18 Israel would break the Old Covenant...and they did.

* Adam and Eve were all there was...there were no kingdoms then...just Adam and Eve.

* The Abrahamic Covenant is fully discussed in Romans 4 by Paul...so you're flat wrong on that. The Davidic Covenant is the promise of Christ...why do you think Matthew's Gospel starts out "The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham"?

* The "spiritual rule" is errant theology...Jesus knew Abraham...He said clearly "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he was glad"...how do you think that happened?

* The grace component was waaaay before the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. Remember this..."But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord"? Furthermore how did anything but God's grace save Adam and Eve? Adam is called the "son of God". Clearly, he's right there in Christ genealogy. Do you trust your theology or scripture Jerry? Everyone who has been saved, and will be saved were in Christ before the foundation of the world.

*The land promise ended with the Old Covenant...and there is no land promise in the New Covenant.


This too can be refuted with scripture:
Jesus didn't have to do that...remember what John said at John 1:11-13? Read that..and understand the New Covenant came so that "to as many as received Him, He gave them THE RIGHT to become children of God"!!! It is through Israel rejection of Christ, that the New Covenant came...more of God's foreknowledge.


No need to refute that Jerry. The point of Hebrews 9 is the superiority of Christ and the New Covenant, over the Old Covenant. Try reading all of it.



After Adam and Eve sinned everyone ever born of them was lost Jerry. Furthermore, if you read Exodus 12:43-50, you'd know Gentiles became Jews all the time. Ever read about the many Gentiles became Jews in Esther 8:17 Jerry? They did it by obeying Exodus 12:43-50!!!


This is Jeremiah 11:9-10
9 Then the Lord said to me, “A conspiracy has been found among the men of Judah and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They have turned back to the iniquities of their ancestors who refused to hear My words, and they have gone after other gods to serve them; the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers.”

This is Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

You say they were backslidden...BUT...God says they broke the covenant...and Jesus institutes a New Covenant. This is Matthew 26:26-28:
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
You're wrong on this Jerry.


I think I made that point already.


One more time Jerry...at Jeremiah 31:32 God cleary says Israel and Judah broke the covenant He made with their fathers...you say they were backslidden?

ebedlemech,

1. The land of the whole earth had to be restored because of Adam’s sin.
God used Israel to bring the Messiah to the world and the specific land Genesis 12-15 was promised to Israel concerning the Kingdom of Heaven reign.
At the same time the restoration of the earth will be renovated as well as the animal kingdom Isaiah 11; Joel 2, Romans 8.

2. Jesus did bring the New Covenant in at Calvary.
Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8-7-13 hasn’t been fulfilled yet because it is specific for Israel and their covenants concerning their place in the future millennial.
Moses did prophesy Israel would break the covenant and they did and I don’t disagree with that.

3. You are misunderstanding about kingdoms. We are talking about spiritual and physical rule of what God had given them.
In Jesus day there was the Roman kingdom but no Jewish kingdom.
Jesus had to offer the KoH millennial reign because of the promises to the nation which you have ignored.

4. Romans 4 is about salvation without works in the old and new covenants.
This was written to the church but that is not all of the Abrahamic Covenant concerning the Jews and the millennial kingdom rulership positions that differ from the church.
Before, during, and after the law men had to believe but their revelation understandings were different. This is where one must understand gradual revelation and how it unfolded.
The genealogies of Abraham and David are about fulfilling the covenants of Abraham and David; the land and the Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth. Read Luke 1 and it talks about the spiritual and physical rule.

5. Abraham was glad to see Jesus day because he knew the prophesies and Jesus was the second person in the trinity in the Old Testament.

5. Grace was before the old covenant and new covenant. There’s nothing new about that.
Just because I mentioned that grace was in those covenants doesn’t mean that I believe there wasn’t grace before their time.
Many people believe there was no grace in the law of Moses and that is not true.

6. The program with Israel didn’t end with the Old Covenant.
Romans 11: 25-29 is prophetic to all Israel will be saved for their gifts and callings are without repentance.
Obviously, you must believe in the spiritual Jew theory and that the church will take the place of Israel in the millennial kingdom at the head of nations Isaiah 2:2-4. That is a falsehood.

7. John is right because he is talking about the cross.
Hebrews 9:15 talks about he died for the sins of the first testament.
Hebrews 11:40 people before the cross were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary and this is why the testator had to die first.

8. The New Covenant is superior because it is built on better promises Hebrews 8.

9. Gentiles were proselyted into Judaism but as a whole they didn’t have covenant. Read Ephesians 2-3.

10. They broke the covenant and they were considered backsliders. Read Hosea and the other minor prophets.
They were already backslidden in Jesus because they had broken the covenant before then.

11. Matthew 26:28 is true and happened at the last supper but the new covenant wasn’t ratified until the death of the testator. So you haven’t refuted nothing according to scripture.

12. Jesus didn’t teach the New Covenant of the Death, Burial and Resurrection under the KoH and KoG message directly to the Jews during his earthly message.
If you think so then show scriptural context. Jerry kelso

 

[ebedmelech]

ebedlemech,

1. The land of the whole earth had to be restored because of Adam’s sin.
God used Israel to bring the Messiah to the world and the specific land Genesis 12-15 was promised to Israel concerning the Kingdom of Heaven reign.
At the same time the restoration of the earth will be renovated as well as the animal kingdom Isaiah 11; Joel 2, Romans 8.

This is God's mercy towards Adam and Eve's fall Jerry. Nothing "had to be restored", God desired to restore it as well as to redeem a people for His name. That is the correct understanding.

2. Jesus did bring the New Covenant in at Calvary.
Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8-7-13 hasn’t been fulfilled yet because it is specific for Israel and their covenants concerning their place in the future millennial.
Moses did prophesy Israel would break the covenant and they did and I don’t disagree with that.

Sure it has Jerry, we are now under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is abolished...period!

3. You are misunderstanding about kingdoms. We are talking about spiritual and physical rule of what God had given them.
In Jesus day there was the Roman kingdom but no Jewish kingdom.
Jesus had to offer the KoH millennial reign because of the promises to the nation which you have ignored.

Really? You simply cannot prove that from scripture! Additionally, why the was there a King Herod ruling Israel when Jesus came into the world Jerry? Rome, being the world power, simply allowed Israel to rule itself underneath their rule...that is clear from scripture. It was King Herod calling the shots attempting to kill Jesus after Joseph had fled to Egypt...not Rome. What you're saying here is just flat wrong.

4. Romans 4 is about salvation without works in the old and new covenants.
This was written to the church but that is not all of the Abrahamic Covenant concerning the Jews and the millennial kingdom rulership positions that differ from the church.
Before, during, and after the law men had to believe but their revelation understandings were different. This is where one must understand gradual revelation and how it unfolded.
The genealogies of Abraham and David are about fulfilling the covenants of Abraham and David; the land and the Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth. Read Luke 1 and it talks about the spiritual and physical rule.

I'll simply post Romans 4:13 here and show you how wrong you are:
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Now...if that is not the Abrahamic Covenant what is Jerry? Better yet...lets post the Abrahamic Covenant of Genesis 17:4-5
4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

As for the physical and spiritual rule...you cannot separate them Jerry. The millennial rule began at Matthew 28:18...but that's another debate.

5. Abraham was glad to see Jesus day because he knew the prophesies and Jesus was the second person in the trinity in the Old Testament.

Abraham rejoice to see Jesus day because he spoke with the pre-incarnate Christ as Melchizedek at Genesis 14.

5. Grace was before the old covenant and new covenant. There’s nothing new about that.
Just because I mentioned that grace was in those covenants doesn’t mean that I believe there wasn’t grace before their time.
Many people believe there was no grace in the law of Moses and that is not true.

I'm glad we agree on this.

6. The program with Israel didn’t end with the Old Covenant.
Romans 11: 25-29 is prophetic to all Israel will be saved for their gifts and callings are without repentance.
Obviously, you must believe in the spiritual Jew theory and that the church will take the place of Israel in the millennial kingdom at the head of nations Isaiah 2:2-4. That is a falsehood.

Not a falsehood...just something you don't grasp. Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Philippians 3:3 are just a few places the spiritual Jew is clearly taught...and Ephesians 2:11-22 knocks it out of the park. That you can't see it doesn't make it false.

7. John is right because he is talking about the cross.
Hebrews 9:15 talks about he died for the sins of the first testament.
Hebrews 11:40 people before the cross were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary and this is why the testator had to die first.

The overall point of Hebrews 9 is that the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant which is abolished. Hebrews 8:13:
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

8. The New Covenant is superior because it is built on better promises Hebrews 8.

Once again...read Hebrews 8:13 above.

9. Gentiles were proselyted into Judaism but as a whole they didn’t have covenant. Read Ephesians 2-3.

No. I think it better you read Ephesians 2:11-22...and get the full picture! Furthermore proselyte Jusadism was one thing Jesus got all over the Pharisees about. They ignored Exodus 12:43-50

10. They broke the covenant and they were considered backsliders. Read Hosea and the other minor prophets.
They were already backslidden in Jesus because they had broken the covenant before then.

You miss the point. When you break a covenant, the party you made the covenant with doesn't have to honor it. God sent Christ to fulfill the Old Covenant. Christ said it Himself!

11. Matthew 26:28 is true and happened at the last supper but the new covenant wasn’t ratified until the death of the testator. So you haven’t refuted nothing according to scripture.

Jesus refuted it Himself...He said...IT IS FINISHED...and He gave up the ghost. New Covenant ratified Jerry...and the veil into the Holy of Holies was torn in half. God NEVER appeared there to the High Priest on The Day of Atonement ever again!

12. Jesus didn’t teach the New Covenant of the Death, Burial and Resurrection under the KoH and KoG message directly to the Jews during his earthly message.
If you think so then show scriptural context. Jerry kelso

Try reading John 10

 

[jgr]

Gentiles were proselyted into Judaism but as a whole they didn’t have covenant.

jerry,

Read Genesis 17:12 and recognize how any who were “not of thy (Abraham's) seed”, i.e. Gentiles, were extended, and included under, God's covenant, of which circumcision was the sign, from the moment of the beginning of covenant history.

They certainly did “have covenant”, because physical DNA has never been a condition of God's covenants, notwithstanding incessant dispensational insistence upon their “racialization”.

God's covenant conditions have only ever been two chromosomes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

Nothing else.