"If we had confidence that Trump did not commit a crime, we would have said so"

[LostMarbels]

I wasn't stating that they are exactly the same thing.
Just stating that it is possible to be in the "right" but also to be provoking people too.
Why do something, if you know it is going to provoke them? Why do it if you think some of them might get violent against you?

I can't even fathom that... I literally can not wrap my head around being too scared to stand for what I believe in. One day I'm going to die. Even if I am in perfect health and have never offend someone ever again. That is going to happen. Why do I have to live my life in a manner that may be offensive to me, just to appease someone who doesn't like my way of life? NO!

You da man!

I'm a fool. Just a man that stands on what he believes. Nothing special.

Did you really need to come up with an insulting nickname for her?

I didn't come up with that.

I assume there are some things you could say that you would think are "normal" but you would expect others to take as being "extreme".

Absolutely.

I can't say the same of myself. I don't think I have any views that would be considered extreme or would be banned from social media sites. I don't think it is a liberal thing, just a decency thing.

You also have to take into consideration this is a forum where we purposely come to discuss this stuff. I'm not political at work and everyday life.

 

[LostMarbels]

A communist-anarchist militia movement? That made me chuckle.

I'm very left leaning and the couple of antifa individuals I have talked to simply see themselves as a movement against the rise of fascism, conservatism and nationalism.

Interesting. I will certainly accept your adonisment over what I have read, seeing that you are actualy there. I read in several articles they are socialist. We have a socialist movement going on over here and they frequent the same circles with antifa. I thought they were antifa.

Any comment on wanting America to be overthrown?

 

[LostMarbels]

@Skreeper
Not going to lie, you definitely have me interested. The more I think about it the more it make sense. Antifa is a conglomeration of leftist groups.(more aptly a coalition rather than business) I don't know why I didn't think of that. I would definitely be interested if you can point me in the right direction.

 

[stevil]

I can't even fathom that... I literally can not wrap my head around being too scared to stand for what I believe in.

You don't have to provoke people to be true to yourself do you?
I walk around, go to work, spend time with public etc. I don't feel a need to tell everyone which party I'm going to vote for, I don't feel a need to tell everyone that there is no god.
I mean, I can still vote, I can still not believe. I can be me, but I just don't need to argue or provoke people around me.
It's not because I am scared, its because I am wise. Why fight when you don't have to?
When I walk alone at night I take a common route, one with lights, one with people around. Why would I choose a dark secluded path and then arm myself with a gun, unless of course I'm itching for a fight, itching to shoot someone with my gun.

Best to not get into those situations in the first place. It is smart, wise not scared.

I didn't come up with that.

But why say it in the first place? I haven't been calling Trump or any of the Fox opinion people names. Why resort to that in conversation with me?
Is name calling a Conservative thing? Is it liberal of me to not be calling people names?

You also have to take into consideration this is a forum where we purposely come to discuss this stuff. I'm not political at work and everyday life.

Sure, we are being open and honest.

I am finding it interesting talking to a true blue Trump supporter that goes to those rallies I see on Youtube. I've always wondered what such a person would be like. It is strange to me that someone goes to Political rallies outside of an election cycle. I've seen some of what goes on in the rally due to youtube, but it doesn't seem to be anything too interesting, Trump just keeps repeating himself and going off on tangents. I really wonder what people get out of those rallies.
But to each his own, really. I'm just interested to try and understand more.
But I guess I really would understand people that go to comic com either. I just guess it is a fan thing.

I would have thought Trump ought to be in office doing political work, are these rallies a week-end thing?

 

[LostMarbels]

You don't have to provoke people to be true to yourself do you?
I walk around, go to work, spend time with public etc. I don't feel a need to tell everyone which party I'm going to vote for, I don't feel a need to tell everyone that there is no god.
I mean, I can still vote, I can still not believe. I can be me, but I just don't need to argue or provoke people around me.
It's not because I am scared, its because I am wise. Why fight when you don't have to?
When I walk alone at night I take a common route, one with lights, one with people around. Why would I choose a dark secluded path and then arm myself with a gun, unless of course I'm itching for a fight, itching to shoot someone with my gun.

Best to not get into those situations in the first place. It is smart, wise not scared.

See I do not get that thinking. Should a gay man dress 'appropriate' so he doesn't cause offense? Should an attractive woman not wear a skirt so she is'nt raped? It just boggles the mind. The answer to me is no they shouldn't. They have the right to be who they are even if it offends me. It is a foreign rational to me that others owe me comfort by not offending me.

But why say it in the first place? I haven't been calling Trump or any of the Fox opinion people names. Why resort to that in conversation with me?
Is name calling a Conservative thing? Is it liberal of me to not be calling people names?

No that's a politics thing in all honesty. Straight across the board. And in all honesty you are correct for calling me out. I apologize.

I am finding it interesting talking to a true blue Trump supporter that goes to those rallies I see on Youtube. I've always wondered what such a person would be like. It is strange to me that someone goes to Political rallies outside of an election cycle. I've seen some of what goes on in the rally due to youtube, but it doesn't seem to be anything too interesting, Trump just keeps repeating himself and going off on tangents. I really wonder what people get out of those rallies.
But to each his own, really. I'm just interested to try and understand more.
But I guess I really would understand people that go to comic com either. I just guess it is a fan thing.

Manly it is unity. Many of us, myself included want to live in a strong vibratant country and understand it is the people of the country that build the country. People that go to rallies are there for community. To talk to each other and listen to a president they finally believe cares about them. It is realy neat to go to one and see how everyone just gets along. All races and nationalities. Gays, straight, Jew, Christian, muslim, what have you. Sometimes a person may have never spoken to a gay person their entire life for example. Never been anywhere to have ever met one, but under this community where we are all americans, under the same flag people talk. It's not about religion. Or changing each other. so people open up. It is about fighting for every single american and putting them first before any other country. And we just have fun.

My opinion.

I would have thought Trump ought to be in office doing political work, are these rallies a week-end thing?

If Trump did not speak directly to his constituents no one would even know what was going on. Same goes with twitter.

 

[Kentonio]

I can't even pump gas into my car before going to work, while wearing a MAGA hat, without an altercation in my area. It is ridiculous. If you put a bumper sticker on your car, there is a very real chance your windows will get busted out. This isn't a joke. These people are nuts. While it is not all liberals/left that conduct these actions, liberal officials do not disavow such actions and even alluded them.

What do you think might happen if you lived in a small town in some parts of the Appalachians or deep in the bible belt and you went around wearing an 'I'm with Her!' Hillary hat?

Because many in America do not realise who antifa actually is. Over here it is a bunch of snotty nosed brats playing dress up. So far.... Where your from they will kill you. They are a communist-anarchist militia movement that aspires to forcibly overthrow the United States government...

And they vote democrat.

I'm confused. You seem to be saying the US ones are kids playing dress up while the European ones are hardcore psychos, yet you're not clear on who exactly it is that aspires to forcibly overthrow the United States government, and votes democrat. Presumably this can't be the European ones, so its the kids playing dress up that Americans should be scared of?

Incidentally, the loose grouping now known as Anti-fa have been around since at least the 70's, and their activities rarely stretched beyond fighting skinheads and nazis to protect minorities who those same neo-fascists were using intimidation and violence against. At a time when there was little police protection for gays and ethnic minorities, anti-fa were a small group of people willing to put their own safety on the line to protect others.

Yes, anarchists and nutjobs have associated themselves with that group in recent years as they've grown to media prominence (a pretty inevitable consequence of a loose grouping that is involved in violence), but the idea that they're some organized army of liberals wanting to overthrow the US government is honestly quite mental.

 

[stevil]

See I do not get that thinking. Should a gay man dress 'appropriate' so he doesn't cause offense? Should an attractive woman not wear a skirt so she is'nt raped? It just boggles the mind. The answer to me is no they shouldn't. They have the right to be who they are even if it offends me. It is a foreign rational to me that others owe me comfort by not offending me.

You are right, it isn't the gay person's fault, it isn't the woman's fault.
But none of that matters once he is gay bashed and she is raped.
Noone will blame the victims, but unfortunately they are still victims.

It is not merely about offending people.
If you genuinely fear that what you are doing might encourage people to attack you. If you fear it so much that you feel you must wear a gun, or must post online how fearful you are, well, wouldn't it be wiser to be more careful?

Yes, you absolutely have the right to wear a MAGA hat, and you wearing one doesn't give crazies the OK to attack you.
BUT, if you know there are violent crazies in town, and you fear them attacking you. Why wear the hat?
I mean, surely the MAGA hat doesn't represent your identity? Most people don't go around wearing political statements, most people generally keep their political leanings to themselves, not hidden, but just not showing it off either. It's just politics after all. When all is said and done, we all have the same President/Prime Minister, we all have to live by the same laws, and we all get to vote next time around. We don't have to rub up against each other politically in the mean time.

In society we have people from all sorts of ideologies, we don't have to try to distinguish ourselves apart from each other do we?

Anyway, I'm just saying that if the danger is there, then why provoke it? Even if you are in the right, none of that really matters.
For the gay guy, if the town has some violent gay bashers, I'd be suggesting they tone it down and blend in. I know, they shouldn't have to, I know we shouldn't reward threats. But we do need to choose our fights. Is it really worth it to fight over a hat? And for the girl I'd suggest she makes sure she has company, and avoids dark alleys, and avoids getting too drunk and vulnerable, especially if alone.

Now if you do wear the hat, and the haters come and attack you, lets say you pull out your gun and shoot them.
Are you now proud of yourself? People are dead as a result of you wearing the hat. I know it isn't your fault, but it could have been avoided.

For the girl she could walk with a friend or walk in a well lit, well traveled path, or she could carry a gun and walk alone in the dark. One way she is more likely to be unharmed and no-one dies, the other way she is more likely to have to shoot someone. From an idealistic approach, she could say, well I should be allowed to walk where-ever I like, but in reality, it is just wiser to take the more safe path.

You can control yourself, but you can't control them. I really don't see this idealistic (but I'm right and they are wrong) attitude as very wise, it isn't brave either, it's just stubborn.

There are more important things to life.
Personally, my family needs me, my wife needs me, my kids need me. It would be stupid for me to risk that over fighting for my right to wear a hat.

Anyway, I've said all I can say on that. You can make your own choices obviously. I hope you stay safe which ever path you take.

 

[LostMarbels]

What do you think might happen if you lived in a small town in some parts of the Appalachians or deep in the bible belt and you went around wearing an 'I'm with Her!' Hillary hat?

Well, the appalachian state university was host to The "I'm With Her festival". Chelsea has actualy campaigned there. So...... might wanna cover up, your bias is showin. Got somin ta say bout country foke?

I'm confused. You seem to be saying the US ones are kids playing dress up while the European ones are hardcore psychos, yet you're not clear on who exactly it is that aspires to forcibly overthrow the United States government, and votes democrat. Presumably this can't be the European ones, so its the kids playing dress up that Americans should be scared of?

Not exactly sure. I have brought this up before. It was the exact same tactics that Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych Obama area. Antifa is a well organized force. That being said, they are here in America, at least in proxy. Could just be to get Americans themselves to fight. They are completely anti conservative. To their core. And here in America they are full of anti Trump rhetoric and do act violently against conservatives.


All joking aside this is like having isis in our country.

In Europe:

Yes, anarchists and nutjobs have associated themselves with that group in recent years as they've grown to media prominence (a pretty inevitable consequence of a loose grouping that is involved in violence), but the idea that they're some organized army of liberals wanting to overthrow the US government is honestly quite mental.

Why? We just had a coup attempt, and antifa sides with them. And its not just the US government. They go after any government they deem fascist.

 

[Kentonio]

Well, the appalachian state university was host to The "I'm With Her festival". Chelsea has actualy campaigned there. So...... might wanna cover up, your bias is showin. Got somin ta say bout country foke?

You perhaps missed the part where I said 'some parts of the Appalachians'. And yes, being originally country folk myself, I have plenty to say about country folk.

Not exactly sure. I have brought this up before. It was the exact same tactics that Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych Obama area. Antifa is a well organized force. That being said, they are here in America, at least in proxy. Could just be to get Americans themselves to fight. They are completely anti conservative. To their core. And here in America they are full of anti Trump rhetoric and do act violently against conservatives.

All joking aside this is like having isis in our country.

No, it really isn't. Have you considered for a moment that Antifa is not actually a well organized anything, let alone some terrorist force out to destroy your way of life? Any time anarchists or extreme left people do anything now, its all neatly grouped under 'Antifa' by the media, because they love a nice clean red vs blue conflict for the viewers to understand and follow.

You know we have various anti-facist groups in the UK that are also willing to use violence against neo-nazis. Strangely, most of us feel absolutely no fear of these people, because we tend to agree with them that being a fascist is a dangerous and toxic behaviour.

It's more than a little sad that the conservative movement in the US has swung so hard right that its hard to tell the difference quite often these days.

Why? We just had a coup attempt, and antifa sides with them. And its not just the US government. They go after any government they deem fascist.

This is ridiculous, if you think a legal investigation started by a member of your presidents own administration counts as a 'coup' then you're setting the bar pretty darn low.

Where did this victim complex even come from? I remember when the right used to love painting the left as weak, scared and unwilling to stand up to anything or anyone. Now apparently liberals are like ISIS and every conservative needs to cry and hide under the bed in terror. Strange turnaround.

 

[LostMarbels]

No, it really isn't. Have you considered for a moment that Antifa is not actually a well organized anything, let alone some terrorist force out to destroy your way of life? Any time anarchists or extreme left people do anything now, its all neatly grouped under 'Antifa' by the media, because they love a nice clean red vs blue conflict for the viewers to understand and follow.

I did until a few moments ago. Thought they we snotty nose kids in fact.

You know we have various anti-facist groups in the UK that are also willing to use violence against neo-nazis. Strangely, most of us feel absolutely no fear of these people, because we tend to agree with them that being a fascist is a dangerous and toxic behaviour.

The terms fascist, Trump supporter, and conservative are synonymous in America. I also live in a country that calls black people white supremacist so I have no Idea what they are going to call a nazi. I already know "punch a nazi" is beat trump supporters. I mean we have racist trees. There is no logic to this. Only justifications. The same kind of justifications that devalue targets before they are attacked. Dehumanize them so you can justify your actions.

It's more than a little sad that the conservative movement in the US has swung so hard right that its hard to tell the difference quite often these days.

Umhummm. Let me know when you actually want to discuss stuff.

This is ridiculous, if you think a legal investigation started by a member of your presidents own administration counts as a 'coup' then you're setting the bar pretty darn low.

Did you know Steele is going to testify to the FBI? Just so happens he agree during Trump's visit to the UK. I wonder what that will bring up. They're also looking into the midyear exam. Those two kinda go hand and hand. Its gonna be interesting.

 

[Kentonio]

Did you know Steele is going to testify to the FBI? Just so happens he agree during Trump's visit to the UK.

Why would this surprise you? Do you know for instance that Steele was a trusted friend of the FBI dating back many years and had previously helped them with a number of high profile criminal cases? The only reason Steele stopped cooperating with the FBI was because he felt they were ignoring his information, and later the politicians started using him as a football because they were so desperate to smear the information he'd uncovered.

So what exactly do you think he's going to say that's going to help Trump in any way shape or form? This is a guy who say his career blown to pieces purely because he tried to warn the US intelligence services about information that suggested a serious threat to national security. For that attempted help, his life is now ruined.

 

[whatbogsends]

Not attacking... overbearing, overwhelming, and twisting out of context. I cannot answer 7ish individuals all confronting me at the same time concerning random, and personally subjective burdens of proof.

I cannot convey my actual meaning in that forum. It's not that I am running or worried about attacks. I cannot give you any sort of proper attention to correctly address you arguments if I can't even get time to respond. Some sort of order is needed if you want to actualy talk.

I understand it can be difficult to respond to several conversations within a thread. The reason it probably feels like people "swarm" is because you post strongly worded, yet unsupported and illogical claims. In one of your more recent posts, you made the argument:

Given Trump's approval rating is around 40%, does this mean that 60% of people oppose Trump?

​

This is not even close to accurate. This man draws crowds like a rock star. Some of his rallies have 40 to 60 thousand people outside of the venue watching live on huge screens. This is of course "fact checked", but if you have ever been to one you have seen the crowds. The reality is nowhere near on par with the narrative, and in many ways that hinders the left, because they have no real grasp of the massive amounts of people that go to listen to this politician speak. This man has groupies that tour the nation and camp outside of venues for days to make sure they "get into" every rallie he gives.

Drawing large crowds doesn't have bearing on approval numbers, nor in any way, shape, or form, refute the polls which indicate that he has roughly 40% approval and 60% disapproval. The reality of a localized event doesn't contradict the national reality of his popularity or lack thereof. A snowstorm in South Carolina isn't evidence that contradicts the rising global temperature.

We acknowledge that Trump's supporters tend to be very passionate - significantly moreso than that of normal politicians. It doesn't, however mean, that the number of people that support him are more than what the polling data suggests.​

I said the left is in power and groups like ANTIFA support that power. Members of antifa do not hold conservative views. They are liberal, and/or socialist. They vote democratic, not republican. When they commit acts of violence they are over liberal/left held ideals, talking points, and/or positions.

Violent cowards almost always cover their faces when commiting crime.

If those perpetrating violence had the blessing of the state, they wouldn't need to cover their faces. Antifa isn't aligned with those in power.

No. Antifa affiliates themselves with the left, and commits violent acts over leftist ideals.

"The left" isn't in power. Antifa doesn't support those in power.

Antifa associates themselves with the left. The left doesn't associate themselves with Antifa. Antifa represents a tiny, tiny fraction of "the left".

Please forgive the forwardness, I highly doubt you can 'take me to task'.

I'm sure you feel that way.

 

[rjs330]

I was asking about your credentials, due to your dismissal of experts on this thread. You are challenging a judge, as if you know better than them what rights they have, and you have dismissed the opinion of a thousand prosecutors. Why would anyone think you know better than all of those legal experts? That would be absurd.

I work in the justice system. I work with prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys. So I know what I'm talking about. I've explained the procedures on how this stuff works. Last time.

A judge can order papers be turned over. The party can fight that order for any number of reasons. A higher court can vacate the lower courts order. That's how it works.

 

[rjs330]

But your feelings are not an impeachable offence. Many seek impeachment simply because they do not 'like' trump. Not because he actualy broke the law. So they look for a way to get rid of him, and justify it on their dislike of Trump.

They all want him impeaches for breaking the law. What law? He has not been charged with anything. The FBI has not alleged he broke a law. Mueller did not allege he broke a law.

Congress has not begun an impeachment process. In fact the majority of Democrats in Congress oppose impeachment.

 

[Kentonio]

They all want him impeaches for breaking the law. What law? He has not been charged with anything. The FBI has not alleged he broke a law. Mueller did not allege he broke a law.

Congress has not begun an impeachment process. In fact the majority of Democrats in Congress oppose impeachment.

For goodness sake, how many times? Mueller laid out multiple instances where Trump may have obstructed justice, then said he had no power to indict a president, and that it would be unfair to say a crime had been committed because his inability to indict would give Trump no recourse to clear his name. He then SPECIFICALLY said that if he thought Trump was innocent he would say so, and did not in any way say so.

He couldn't have been much clearer that he thought crimes were committed but it was up to congress to deal with them.

 

[rjs330]

I oppose Trump because his change of Cuba travel policy screwed up my honeymoon. I oppose Trump because the elimination of SALT deductions caused me to have a higher tax bill this year. I oppose Trump because he refuse to support Article 5 of NATO. I oppose Trump for pulling us out of TPP and the Paris Climate Agreement. I oppose Trump for backing out of the Iran Deal. I oppose Trump for raising tariffs on Chinese (and possibly Mexican goods). I oppose Trump for pressuring people who work for him to obstruct justice. I oppose Trump for claiming he trusts Putin’s word over our own intelligence community. I oppose Trump for ballooning the US Deficit when we have a good economy and should be reducing it. I oppose Trump for rolling back protections for transgender students. I oppose Trump for not putting his companies in a blind trust. I oppose Trump for lying to us about releasing his tax returns...

SALT deductions is a problem? I thought liberals liked taxes. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Arcangl86]

SALT deductions is a problem? I thought liberals liked taxes. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

It's hypocritical to complain about being taxed on the taxes they have to pay?

 

[Pommer]

Not even the same. A concert is entertainment.

Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it?
Trump made politics “entertainment” for vast swaths of the population, many of whom are ill-equipped to deal with the sophisticated nature of politics, which requires a subtle and nuanced understanding of side-issues that all blend to form the whole!

 

[Pommer]

Why do I have to live my life in a manner that may be offensive to me, just to appease someone who doesn't like my way of life? NO!

Yes, overcoming this natural propensity to selfishness is at the crux of all religion, and, increasingly, politics.

 

[rambot]

I empathise with people, and even agree that Trump is brutish at time. But I do not take emotions as fact. Not even my own.

But identifying behaviours is not "emotions". It's identifying behaviours. And behaviours ARE fact. They are identifiable and often, also quantifiable (depending of course...)

I used to work with emotionally troubled youths. I had to identify their antisocial behaviours as a means to help them understand it and work through those to a place of healing.
My responses were not emotive; they were descriptive.
It's incorrect to confuse the two.

In all fairness I see your point. Also in all fairness these conversations tend to be a one sided dogpile on the Trump supporter.

That I understand and I agree that that happens. Part of that has to do with the fact that there are fewer trump supporters than critics on here.

I say what I see. I make no distinctions, and do not sugar coat. Many, hate me for that. We can always discuss what I say, or even what both of us believe, but I will always speak honestly even if it is offensive. I'm not making judgement. I am voicing my veiw.

Say what you see; so long as that is borne out in facts and evidence, I don't think ANYONE is going to fault you for that. But you can't assume people's motivation for things. And you have to ensure that there is mutual understanding of facts and evidence.

I do believe what is seen in Trump, in many circumstances, is because of preconceived notions, understandings and emotion concerning him. This is also enforced and actualy taught in society. For many, he was not even given the chance to prove himself. To them he can't prove himself and no matter what he does it will not be correct. There is no correct way to prove negative.

I'm hoping you can help me explain this: I'm sure you recognize that Trump has inserted himself into the public zeitgeist for, let's say 20 years. He has marketed himself in a specific way to cultivate that image. Not only that but, as a media and business magnate, he has had numerous court challenges and battles that do not reflect well on his ethics and business practices. But the way your argument reads (ie... "preconceived notions"), you make it seem that nobody had ANY idea of what he is like. I would wager, moreso than any other president, Trump's behaviours and personality were known before the election. This argument of "he was never given a chance" falls on deaf ears since he HIMSELF created his beast.
And as I've said, I can be very agreeable to good ideas. But a) I rarely to never see him have ideas I tihnk are good ideas b) His personality won't change.
Lastly, your use of the phrase "can't prove a negative" is quite incorrect. You can prove you are not a jerk on Twitter by going through your tweets and noting that you are not a jerk on your tweeks; ie. the absence of evidence can prove a negative. But again, Trump cannot do that because he makes no effort to try to prove the negative; frankly, negativity is part of his brand.

Day one, his inauguration, he had never committed a single action as the President and people wanted him out of office. You cannot prove your worth to, or console individuals the hate you (AS)_before you even (WERE). Day one... 'He' is a horrible President'. How do you even know? He isn't even sworn in yet. Unfortunately that emotion followed him his entire presidency thus far.

So here's the thing: Leaders, effective leaders almost always have the same character traits. Lying is not an effective trait of a leader. Misrepresenting reality is not an effective leader. Poor communication is not an effective leader. Depending on your take on the situation, his inauguration had at least one of those three issues come up. Trump critics would argue three and his supporters, at BEST, would end up arguing the third one ("he was talking about online presence" though that is a really, REALLY generous understanding of his word choice in my view).

Again, if Trump makes no effort to try to prove us wrong, why does it behove us to change our opinion of him?
Has his behaviour changed a LOT as president? Cause I don't see that.

Oh he is definitely bullish, no doubt about it. Come hell or high water Trump is going to do exactly what he set out to do. You don't tell him no. And many people can not stand that. When you try to explain that Trump is within his authority in being pig headed on an issue they go nuts. Trump is a fighter, and he is not going to stop until he gets things done.

For this, I have just one question:
Tell me how tyrannical leadership is a GOOD thing in a democracy LostMarbels. I

His tweets are brilliant. By doing so he cannot be contained by the media, and is not reliant on someone posting his narrative for him. I know it angers some people but he knows how to get his voice out.

Too many of his tweets make him look like an absolute fool for the rest of his tweets to be redeemable. Announcing major policy changes in 140 characters is a strategy designed to connect with simpletons and fools. It seems he too often tries to solve problems with his very, very few tools instead of listening to people with moer knowledge than him (another sign of a poor leader).