"If we had confidence that Trump did not commit a crime, we would have said so"

[LostMarbels]

The more I try to individually explain or answer the more you just attack. You won't even have the conversation I am trying to have.

I repeat:

The point of this entire line of reasoning is if you go against liberal ideals you will be attacked.

Look at this thread. It is like a frenzied wasp nest swarming to kill. And I cannot explain myself by your standard, or by your accusation or ad hominem attacks. I cant respond because I cant get anyone to have the conversation I am trying to have.

Case in point. You say anything, do anything that does not met the approval of the left you will be swarmed by them. Trump is being swarmed with the same furocity by much more powerful people.

 

[Sparagmos]

Judges have no right to order that certain documents be produced. If those documents are deemed as secret he can't just make them be revealed.

What field are you in and what is your educational background, that you somehow know better than judges and all of those prosecutors?

 

[whatbogsends]

The more I try to individually explain or answer the more you just attack. You won't even have the conversation I am trying to have.

I repeat:

Look at this thread. It is like a frenzied wasp nest swarming to kill. And I cannot explain myself by your standard, or by your accusation or ad hominem attacks. I cant respond because I cant get anyone to have the conversation I am trying to have.

Case in point. You say anything, do anything that does not met the approval of the left you will be swarmed by them. Trump is being swarmed with the same furocity by much more powerful people.

The reason your claims are attacked is that they either:
a) are unsupported by evidence
b) contradict reality
or
c) are logically inconsistent

Specific examples have been shown to you, but you ignore the argument, and immediately fall back into "you're attacking me!" as your response.

Example: You made posts claiming the left was in power, and that Antifa was a reflection of that power. It was shown to you that Antifa wears masks because they are not in power. If they were in power, they could perform their violent acts without having to hide their identities. Moreover, you equate Antifa with the left, in general, whereas most of the left condemn's Antifas actions and methods.

I could give more examples, or you could simply re-read the thread, without immediately hiding behind "you're attacking me!" whenever your arguments are taken to task.

 

[rjs330]

What field are you in and what is your educational background, that you somehow know better than judges and all of those prosecutors?

Please quote for me the law that says a judge can order secret documents be revealed. The government has the ability to classify documents. A judge can tell the government they must provide the documents, but the government can fight that based on the classification. They can take it all the way to the supreme Court if necessary. If the Supreme Court rules they must provide the documents then they do. I believe this applies to other documents as well. If you prove what I am saying is wrong then go ahead.

 

[stevil]

Look at this thread. It is like a frenzied wasp nest swarming to kill. And I cannot explain myself by your standard, or by your accusation or ad hominem attacks. I cant respond because I cant get anyone to have the conversation I am trying to have.

This is not true.

I'm trying very hard to have a respectful conversation with you, but I'm finding it difficult to understand you. Your use of the word "liberal" seems to be different to my understanding of it. When you use the word "they" it seems to generalise and include even Republicans.

Your argument about liberals controlling what bathroom you go to, makes no sense to me.
Your argument that social media controls what you can say, gives me the feeling that you want to violate censorship, which is in place as a social norm rather than a liberal control. Generally we are censored so that we can't say racist things, can't say overly aggressive things, hateful things. Are these things the Conservative domain? or is it just common decency?

I think you are blaming "liberals" for everything, even though much of what you are complaining about has nothing to do with liberals.
I think you paint the world as us vs them. And blame all the things you don't like as a "them" fault.
You have build up a massive conspiracy that doesn't actually exist, you have put yourself into the persecuted basket.
These are definitely things that Trump does, he paints the world as us vs them, and everything that doesn't go his way he blames on liberals and builds a picture that everyone is out to get him. He whinges and whines and complains all the time. And I am seeing the same thing from you.

It's really strange, because the Republicans run the USA, they hold all the positions, they make the laws, and before the midterms they had no real opposition. They could do whatever they wanted as long as they could agree amongst themselves. With regards to healthcare they had been complaining for over 6 years. They had 6 years to work out a workable alternative which would please conservatives. But they couldn't agree when push came to shove, they couldn't get it over the line. They didn't even have one thought out in all that time, they were just happy complaining rather than proposing what to do.

 

[Pommer]

Please quote for me the law that says a judge can order secret documents be revealed. The government has the ability to classify documents. A judge can tell the government they must provide the documents, but the government can fight that based on the classification.

“A judge on Thursday ordered the Department of Justice to hand over the unredacted portions of special counsel Robert Mueller’s report pertaining to Roger Stone for her to review privately.”*

Is that what you’re talking about?
The Mueller Report isn’t classified, just “redacted”.
Judge Jackson ordered portions of the Mueller Report (that pertain to the Stone case before her), are given to her, to review, privately.


* Source:Judge orders DOJ to give her unredacted Mueller report portions on Stone for private review

 

[LostMarbels]

[*mistake post.

 

[rambot]

Case in point. You say anything, do anything that does not met the approval of the left you will be swarmed by them. Trump is being swarmed with the same furocity by much more powerful people.

1)You say something people disagree with and the people who disagree with you will speak out against you. How is that problematic?

2) If you say something that I disagree with LM, what would be your preferred way of me adressing that statement?

3) You have 20 pages worth of replies and back and forths. I imagine you could find, surely, a DOZEN examples of what you are talking about since it seems to be something the entire "left" does. I would think if that is happening as often as you say, that this thread would have been shut down a looooooooong time ago.

Trump is getting swarmed. The difference being that his treatment of people is what is initiating the swarming. His absymally foolhearty ideas that even steadfast supporters question, creates swarming. His embarrassing demeanour is a cause for swarming.

 

[LostMarbels]

This is not true.

I'm trying very hard to have a respectful conversation with you, but I'm finding it difficult to understand you. Your use of the word "liberal" seems to be different to my understanding of it. When you use the word "they" it seems to generalise and include even Republicans.

"They", those who go after trump in power are of all parties and differnt backgrounds. It is impossible for me to constantly have to define, reterm, reiterate, and argue a point I am not making over and over again. I cannot follow the semantics and get anywhere, because a soon as I define that point, only that point is discussed and the conversation moves nowhere. So they, or those people who are coming against Trump.

"Liberals, liberal, or those on the Left" is the political affiliation of they, and is also the driving ideological or even societal ethos behind their actions. Liberals, and those on the left (as opposed to conservatives and those on the right) do not want Trump in office. That is simple logic that is not even confused or contested.

Left/right Liberal/Conservative

Your argument about liberals controlling what bathroom you go to, makes no sense to me.

Or it could be a Simple comment. Every single sentence I write is not a dissertation and an quantifiable argument to be proven or disproven. Sometimes it is my own subjective opinion and should be considered as such.

The comment is mad in the belief that liberals even want to tell me what I am going to do, and how I am going to do it.

Your argument that social media controls what you can say, gives me the feeling that you want to violate censorship, which is in place as a social norm rather than a liberal control.

The only hate speech is speaking contrary to what the left wants to hear.

Generally we are censored so that we can't say racist things, can't say overly aggressive things, hateful things. Are these things the Conservative domain? or is it just common decency?

Freedom of speech and expression. Your right to your opinion, expression, and speech is sacred to me. I feel the problem lies with the freedom of only speech I agree with, because that is not tolerance. 'Tolerance' does not silence contrary opinion.

I think you are blaming "liberals" for everything, even though much of what you are complaining about has nothing to do with liberals.

Most who oppose Trump are in an emotionally driven temper tantrum. They are on the attack. They do want to impose their ideals on everyone. They are trying to force compliance, and will physically hurt/assault you if you do not agree/comply.

I think you paint the world as us vs them. And blame all the things you don't like as a "them" fault.

"I" do the painting. No, this is a flinch. A defensive response. Liberals veiw everyone, and anything that dares disagree as a threat. That is not tolerance. That is scary, even a touch crazy.

they were just happy complaining rather than proposing what to do.

What do we do? You go do you, I go do me. Simple. Stop trying to make me conform to your ideals. I will not comply.

 

[LostMarbels]

1)You say something people disagree with and the people who disagree with you will speak out against you. How is that problematic?

It's not. The format of the conversation is impossible for me to convey my actual meaning. There is what? 6? 7? people responding to me? Some of which purposely try to twist what I have said. I am vastly misunderstood because I can't get to a point of where I am discussing my opinions, rather than explaining myself for a misunderstanding, or an opinion of my opinion.

2) If you say something that I disagree with LM, what would be your preferred way of me adressing that statement?

This is fine. And I appreciate the candor show on your part to have this conversation. I honestly thank you for your patient response.

I would think if that is happening as often as you say, that this thread would have been shut down a looooooooong time ago.

Ummmm... I don't know. And frankly, I am confused myself. I'm usually on a month long vacation by now. I hope to God maybe this conversation can be had.

Trump is getting swarmed. The difference being that his treatment of people is what is initiating the swarming. His absymally foolhearty ideas that even steadfast supporters question, creates swarming. His embarrassing demeanour is a cause for swarming.

Ok. I get the difference of opinion, and even the reasoning behind the angst. I even respect that. I am trying to get people to understand those who are opposing Trump are ran by emotion rather than policy, law, or moral conduct as they state they are. They literally HATE him. HATE. Many of their actions are guided by his immediate removal, and obtaining that goal by any means rather than the actual laws, circumstances, or facts.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

It's not. The format of the conversation is impossible for me to convey my actual meaning. There is what? 6? 7? people responding to me? Some of which purposely try to twist what I have said. I am vastly misunderstood because I can't get to a point of where I am discussing my opinions, rather than explaining myself for a misunderstanding, or an opinion of my opinion.



This is fine. And I appreciate the candor show on your part to have this conversation. I honestly thank you for your patient response.



Ummmm... I don't know. And frankly, I am confused myself. I'm usually on a month long vacation by now. I hope to God maybe this conversation can be had.



Ok. I get the difference of opinion, and even the reasoning behind the angst. I even respect that. I am trying to get people to understand those who are opposing Trump are ran by emotion rather than policy, law, or moral conduct as they state they are. They literally HATE him. HATE. Many of their actions are guided by his immediate removal, and obtaining that goal by any means rather than the actual laws, circumstances, or facts.

I oppose Trump because his change of Cuba travel policy screwed up my honeymoon. I oppose Trump because the elimination of SALT deductions caused me to have a higher tax bill this year. I oppose Trump because he refuse to support Article 5 of NATO. I oppose Trump for pulling us out of TPP and the Paris Climate Agreement. I oppose Trump for backing out of the Iran Deal. I oppose Trump for raising tariffs on Chinese (and possibly Mexican goods). I oppose Trump for pressuring people who work for him to obstruct justice. I oppose Trump for claiming he trusts Putin’s word over our own intelligence community. I oppose Trump for ballooning the US Deficit when we have a good economy and should be reducing it. I oppose Trump for rolling back protections for transgender students. I oppose Trump for not putting his companies in a blind trust. I oppose Trump for lying to us about releasing his tax returns...

 

[stevil]

What do we do? You go do you, I go do me. Simple. Stop trying to make me conform to your ideals. I will not comply.

I'm not trying to change you.
I'm trying to understand your issues/concerns.
I myself, I don't consider myself a liberal nor a conservative.
In NZ, if I were to put myself in a political box, I would loosely consider myself center right. Fiscally conservative (to a point). I believe in creating an environment where businesses can thrive and that will create jobs and opportunities.

Most who oppose Trump are in an emotionally driven temper tantrum. They are on the attack. They do want to impose their ideals on everyone. They are trying to force compliance, and will physically hurt/assault you if you do not agree/comply.

Given Trump's approval rating is around 40%, does this mean that 60% of people oppose Trump?

I assume you aren't having massive, violent anti-Trump riots in USA. Does this mean that most people who oppose Trump aren't going to resort to violence, aren't going to physically hurt and assault the Trump supporters?

I assume there are various reasons and various levels of opposition to Donald Trump and people who are labelled by others as being "opposing" or "anti-Trump" probably have varying aspects that they oppose and have varying degrees of strength of their opposition to Trump.

I also assume that many of the policy differences, would still be there if Trump where swapped out for Pence. So it isn't policy difference which would be driving people to seek impeachment.

From what I have seen, Trump lies an awful lot, about pretty much everything.
People who don't like government lying, would be opposed to Trump for the amount of lies that he makes.

People that value respecting others, might not like the way Trump calls people names. This is school yard bullying stuff, childish behaviour. So I can see why people may oppose this aspect of Trump's personality. Who wants a leader that does this?
People might also get upset if their leader mocks crippled people. Trump has given many reasons for Americans to be embarrassed of their President's behaviour.
People may also be upset if their leader attacks whole religions and whole races of people e.g. Muslims and Mexicans. I would think most people don't want to be associated with the public statements that Trump has made about these people.

It doesn't take a liberal to be annoyed about these aspects of Trump's personality. I would think any decent human being would be embarrassed by this. Would you let your own kids behave this way, would it be an embarrassment for your family if your kids were doing this in school?

Of course these aren't impeachable offenses, but it is pretty obvious why many people might oppose Trump as their leader, just on these matters. And here, when I say oppose, I mean they want to distance themselves from him, rather than forcibly remove him from office.

The calls for impeachment are based on the view that Trump has been actually breaking laws and calls from impeachment have been at very low levels so far. Most people that oppose Trump haven't been calling for impeachment.

In terms of "liberals" wanting to impose their ideals on others, I see it as the opposite.
Typically liberals are pro-choice, which means they want government out of the decision making process and instead want the woman to decide.
In terms of marriage typically liberals want people to decide for themselves if they are to marry their significant other, where as Conservatives want to force some people not to be allowed to marry.
Conservatives want to force transgenders out of the armed forces, they even want to force gays out of the armed forces.

Can you please explain what liberals want to force you to do?

 

[LostMarbels]

I oppose Trump because his change of Cuba travel policy screwed up my honeymoon. I oppose Trump because the elimination of SALT deductions caused me to have a higher tax bill this year. I oppose Trump because he refuse to support Article 5 of NATO. I oppose Trump for pulling us out of TPP and the Paris Climate Agreement. I oppose Trump for backing out of the Iran Deal. I oppose Trump for raising tariffs on Chinese (and possibly Mexican goods). I oppose Trump for pressuring people who work for him to obstruct justice. I oppose Trump for claiming he trusts Putin’s word over our own intelligence community. I oppose Trump for ballooning the US Deficit when we have a good economy and should be reducing it. I oppose Trump for rolling back protections for transgender students. I oppose Trump for not putting his companies in a blind trust. I oppose Trump for lying to us about releasing his tax returns...

You certainly have the right to oppose him. But what are you trying to tell me here?

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

You certainly have the right to oppose him. But what are you trying to tell me here?

There are more than enough reason to be against Trump long before personal feelings get involved. It’s not blind hatred for most people. It’s actual things he does on the job that makes a lot of his employers unhappy with him.

 

[Sparagmos]

Please quote for me the law that says a judge can order secret documents be revealed. The government has the ability to classify documents. A judge can tell the government they must provide the documents, but the government can fight that based on the classification. They can take it all the way to the supreme Court if necessary. If the Supreme Court rules they must provide the documents then they do. I believe this applies to other documents as well. If you prove what I am saying is wrong then go ahead.

I was asking about your credentials, due to your dismissal of experts on this thread. You are challenging a judge, as if you know better than them what rights they have, and you have dismissed the opinion of a thousand prosecutors. Why would anyone think you know better than all of those legal experts? That would be absurd.

 

[Sparagmos]

ost who oppose Trump are in an emotionally driven temper tantrum. They are on the attack. They do want to impose their ideals on everyone. They are trying to force compliance, and will physically hurt/assault you if you do not agree/comply.

A majority of Americans oppose trump. A majority of Americans are “liberals.” Marbles, if you want to be taken seriously stop making outlandish claims. You are saying that a majority of people in this country will “assault you if you do not comply?” You know that’s absolutely untrue.

 

[LostMarbels]

I'm not trying to change you.
I'm trying to understand your issues/concerns.

Understood, but I did not necessarily mean you yourself. Society in America todays is nuts. Freedom of speech unless "I" find it offensive. Freedom of expression as long as it is approved by a liberal judge in the 9th circuit.

Given Trump's approval rating is around 40%, does this mean that 60% of people oppose Trump?

This is not even close to accurate. This man draws crowds like a rock star. Some of his rallies have 40 to 60 thousand people outside of the venue watching live on huge screens. This is of course "fact checked", but if you have ever been to one you have seen the crowds. The reality is nowhere near on par with the narrative, and in many ways that hinders the left, because they have no real grasp of the massive amounts of people that go to listen to this politician speak. This man has groupies that tour the nation and camp outside of venues for days to make sure they "get into" every rallie he gives.

I assume you aren't having massive, violent anti-Trump riots in USA. Does this mean that most people who oppose Trump aren't going to resort to violence, aren't going to physically hurt and assault the Trump supporters?

I can't even pump gas into my car before going to work, while wearing a MAGA hat, without an altercation in my area. It is ridiculous. If you put a bumper sticker on your car, there is a very real chance your windows will get busted out. This isn't a joke. These people are nuts. While it is not all liberals/left that conduct these actions, liberal officials do not disavow such actions and even alluded them.

I assume there are various reasons and various levels of opposition to Donald Trump and people who are labelled by others as being "opposing" or "anti-Trump" probably have varying aspects that they oppose and have varying degrees of strength of their opposition to Trump.

Yes, there is normal like an individual like yourself. (and many here on this forum) Trying to have a conversation and talk things out. Then there are these complet nut jobs that can't even form a independent thought. They are dangerous. 100% on the real, I find them a credible threat to my life and will/do act accordingly. Scream at me all you want... you put your hands on me I am in fear of my life and do whatever is necessary to survive that situation. That is not a joke or just a flippant comment to make myself look tough. I fear some of these people. They are nuts. I have bad hips and cannot run. So if I cannot walk away.....

I also assume that many of the policy differences, would still be there if Trump where swapped out for Pence. So it isn't policy difference which would be driving people to seek impeachment.

Admittedly, I know Pence's name: Mike. That's about it. Well he is married.... I know that too. But I agree, this is about Trump himself rather than policy, law, or anything it is made out to be.

The calls for impeachment are based on the view that Trump has been actually breaking laws and calls from impeachment have been at very low levels so far. Most people that oppose Trump haven't been calling for impeachment.

And I contend it is based on emotion fueled by perception and media.

Conservatives want to force transgenders out of the armed forces, they even want to force gays out of the armed forces.

This is a manner of medical condition that may require medical attention that cannot be render in a war time scenario.

Can you please explain what liberals want to force you to do?

Not be me. Be them. Stop having my own views and accept theirs.

 

[LostMarbels]

There are more than enough reason to be against Trump long before personal feelings get involved. It’s not blind hatred for most people. It’s actual things he does on the job that makes a lot of his employers unhappy with him.

But your feelings are not an impeachable offence. Many seek impeachment simply because they do not 'like' trump. Not because he actualy broke the law. So they look for a way to get rid of him, and justify it on their dislike of Trump.

 

[LostMarbels]

A majority of Americans oppose trump. A majority of Americans are “liberals.” Marbles, if you want to be taken seriously stop making outlandish claims. You are saying that a majority of people in this country will “assault you if you do not comply?” You know that’s absolutely untrue.

I personally live in a community with a starbucks on the corner of my neighborhood and most certainly will be assaulted for just wearing a hat. Yes, I will. No, I cannot enter that business to purchase a cup of coffee. My mere presence will cause a fight. I am one of those labeled as ' one of those bigoted, racist, Trump supporters from the neighborhood'. That might not be everyone's reality but it is mine, and my outlook.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

But your feelings are not an impeachable offence. Many seek impeachment simply because they do not 'like' trump. Not because he actualy broke the law. So they look for a way to get rid of him, and justify it on their dislike of Trump.

Everyone I’ve seen who wants to impeach Trump brings up some combination of obstruction of justice, the emoluments clause violations, campaign finance violations, and not submitting to Congressional oversight. I don’t know of anyone stupid enough to think they can put “I don’t like him” on the Articles of Impeachment. If there are give me there contact information so I can tell them personally how stupid they are.