"If we had confidence that Trump did not commit a crime, we would have said so"

[LostMarbels]

Everyone I’ve seen who wants to impeach Trump brings up some combination of obstruction of justice, the emoluments clause violations, campaign finance violations, and not submitting to Congressional oversight. I don’t know of anyone stupid enough to think they can put “I don’t like him” on the Articles of Impeachment. If there are give me there contact information so I can tell them personally how stupid they are.

The way you worded that made me chuckle. I agree that would be funny. What I'm saying is people that have an extreme aversion to an individual tend to have extreme views and judgments as well. If an individual someone absolutely despises saves a kitten from a burning building, the person that has the extreme aversion tend to apply that hatred to those acts. So instead of giving praise, they give yet another accusation. " The only reason he saved that cat is because he wants money. He probably set the fire in the first place." Which might not have anything at all to do with the truth, but they don't care, Because they hate that guy and he 'deserves' it.

 

[rambot]

It's not. The format of the conversation is impossible for me to convey my actual meaning. There is what? 6? 7? people responding to me? Some of which purposely try to twist what I have said. I am vastly misunderstood because I can't get to a point of where I am discussing my opinions, rather than explaining myself for a misunderstanding, or an opinion of my opinion.

I haven't had a long discussion with you for a while LostMarbels but I can DEFINITELY say that I have had plenty of discussions with posters on here where I am having trouble understanding people as their usage of phrases or words becomes inconsistent.
I would posit to you that the people you are discussing these things with are not necessarily trying to swarm you but are likely trying to engage with you but are having trouble understanding your message.

This is fine. And I appreciate the candor show on your part to have this conversation. I honestly thank you for your patient response.

No sweat.

Ummmm... I don't know. And frankly, I am confused myself. I'm usually on a month long vacation by now. I hope to God maybe this conversation can be had.

But if the mods aren't doing it, then maybe your understanding of what is unfolding may be wrong.

Ok. I get the difference of opinion, and even the reasoning behind the angst. I even respect that. I am trying to get people to understand those who are opposing Trump are ran by emotion rather than policy, law, or moral conduct as they state they are. They literally HATE him. HATE. Many of their actions are guided by his immediate removal, and obtaining that goal by any means rather than the actual laws, circumstances, or facts.

1) First off, I don't hate trump and though I'm sure there are some/many that DO hate him, that doesn't mean that they don't have REASON to hate him (that's another argument).
That is not to say that I think Godly thoughts of him, sadly. I find him to be a misanthrope, abusive, distasteful, mean, and frankly, not of an ethical calibre that supports him leading a group of people in a direction that will benefit them in the long term.

The confusion lies, at times, I think with the mistaken belief that liberals are being run by "emotion" because of that. He's a jerk and responding to his jerk-like behaviour is going to come across as "emotional". Likely because you are dealing with emotions, feelings, and how people choose to interact with others. The fact is that many of Trump's behaviours are tolerated simply because he's Trump and/or a Republican. I literally CANNOT imagine the fits of indignation that would be happenning if a democratic candidate behave with such a lack of decorum. Obama's policies may have left a lot to be desired in your eyes, but there are things about his character that, I'm not convinced could really be questioned. He loves his daughters (but is not sexually attracted to them); he loves his wife and builds her up and supports her. That alone will say, in my mind, enough about his character to get a start.
Trump can't even seem to stir that feeling inside me; that feeling that he loves his wife; the woman he's married to.

There are SO many liberal christians who are flabbergasted that christians of any type can throw their support behind someone who treats SOOOOO many others so poorly. Again, it's not policy, it's character.

2) In regards to "laws, circumstances, or facts". Frankly, we have 20 pages of Trump supporters clearly having no understanding of the bounds of the Mueller report and then making unsupportable and illogical pronouncements from that. IT is not whole "sides" of a political wing that behave that way but individuals who do. You may believe that Trump critics are ignorant of laws facts etc.... but generally speaking, thread after thread is really undermining that assumption.

3) I have my problems with his policies, no doubt. I find some of them downright awful/prejudice; some misguided; some are CLEARLY the work of bullying; some are just stupid. Some are okay I just disagree with them.
Again, my issue is with how he comports himself and treats others. I can totally disagree with candidates and not feel they are a bad person. I'm POSITIVE I would have usually disagreed with any of the Republican candidates and their decisions; BUT, the quality of their character would not be questions every time they put out a tweet.

 

[rambot]

The way you worded that made me chuckle. I agree that would be funny. What I'm saying is people that have an extreme aversion to an individual tend to have extreme views and judgments as well. If an individual someone absolutely despises saves a kitten from a burning building, the person that has the extreme aversion tend to apply that hatred to those acts. So instead of giving praise, they give yet another accusation. " The only reason he saved that cat is because he wants money. He probably set the fire in the first place." Which might not have anything at all to do with the truth, but they don't care, Because they hate that guy and he 'deserves' it.

Not to jump in but you made an incorrect presumption.
Might I make a really, REALLY bold suggestion:

Listen to the people who complain about Trump. Listen to their words and do NOT let your own wishful understanding of how and why they "must be" reacting that way.

I could hate Trump and still agree with a policy. I don't remember which one but he did one or two I agree with; something about veterans I think. Roundly though, I disagree with almost everything he puts out.

When YOU make a presumption about someone else's motivation without asking them what motivates them, you are speaking VOLUMES about yourself while saying nothing about them.

 

[LostMarbels]

Specific examples have been shown to you, but you ignore the argument, and immediately fall back into "you're attacking me!" as your response.

Not attacking... overbearing, overwhelming, and twisting out of context. I cannot answer 7ish individuals all confronting me at the same time concerning random, and personally subjective burdens of proof.

I cannot convey my actual meaning in that forum. It's not that I am running or worried about attacks. I cannot give you any sort of proper attention to correctly address you arguments if I can't even get time to respond. Some sort of order is needed if you want to actualy talk.

Example: You made posts claiming the left was in power, and that Antifa was a reflection of that power.

I said the left is in power and groups like ANTIFA support that power. Members of antifa do not hold conservative views. They are liberal, and/or socialist. They vote democratic, not republican. When they commit acts of violence they are over liberal/left held ideals, talking points, and/or positions.

It was shown to you that Antifa wears masks because they are not in power. If they were in power, they could perform their violent acts without having to hide their identities.

Violent cowards almost always cover their faces when commiting crime.

Moreover, you equate Antifa with the left, in general, whereas most of the left condemn's Antifas actions and methods.

No. Antifa affiliates themselves with the left, and commits violent acts over leftist ideals.

I could give more examples, or you could simply re-read the thread, without immediately hiding behind "you're attacking me!" whenever your arguments are taken to task.

Please forgive the forwardness, I highly doubt you can 'take me to task'.

 

[LostMarbels]

Listen to the people who complain about Trump. Listen to their words and do NOT let your own wishful understanding of how and why they "must be" reacting that way.

I empathise with people, and even agree that Trump is brutish at time. But I do not take emotions as fact. Not even my own.

When YOU make a presumption about someone else's motivation without asking them what motivates them, you are speaking VOLUMES about yourself while saying nothing about them.

I say what I see. I make no distinctions, and do not sugar coat. Many, hate me for that. We can always discuss what I say, or even what both of us believe, but I will always speak honestly even if it is offensive. I'm not making judgement. I am voicing my veiw.

 

[LostMarbels]

I haven't had a long discussion with you for a while LostMarbels but I can DEFINITELY say that I have had plenty of discussions with posters on here where I am having trouble understanding people as their usage of phrases or words becomes inconsistent.
I would posit to you that the people you are discussing these things with are not necessarily trying to swarm you but are likely trying to engage with you but are having trouble understanding your message.

In all fairness I see your point. Also in all fairness these conversations tend to be a one sided dogpile on the Trump supporter.

But if the mods aren't doing it, then maybe your understanding of what is unfolding may be wrong.

First off, in all honesty the mods are realy good people. I have had many, one on one conversations with quite a few of them. And even if tho we do not agree on everything, they are realy cool people to chat with. They have a difficult job that I have not made any easier. They aren't hard on me because I've been a saint. Quite the contrary, I put myself on their radar. That is my doing, and I harbor no one ill will.

That being said, maybe, hopefully, things are changing. I do not want to cause trouble, I just want the freedom to speak.

1) First off, I don't hate trump and though I'm sure there are some/many that DO hate him, that doesn't mean that they don't have REASON to hate him (that's another argument).
That is not to say that I think Godly thoughts of him, sadly. I find him to be a misanthrope, abusive, distasteful, mean, and frankly, not of an ethical calibre that supports him leading a group of people in a direction that will benefit them in the long term.

(I have read you entire post, even tho I am not quoting the entire post, but I will respond)

I do believe what is seen in Trump, in many circumstances, is because of preconceived notions, understandings and emotion concerning him. This is also enforced and actualy taught in society. For many, he was not even given the chance to prove himself. To them he can't prove himself and no matter what he does it will not be correct. There is no correct way to prove negative.

Day one, his inauguration, he had never committed a single action as the President and people wanted him out of office. You cannot prove your worth to, or console individuals the hate you (AS)_before you even (WERE). Day one... 'He' is a horrible President'. How do you even know? He isn't even sworn in yet. Unfortunately that emotion followed him his entire presidency thus far.

2) In regards to "laws, circumstances, or facts". Frankly, we have 20 pages of Trump supporters clearly having no understanding of the bounds of the Mueller report and then making unsupportable and illogical pronouncements from that. IT is not whole "sides" of a political wing that behave that way but individuals who do. You may believe that Trump critics are ignorant of laws facts etc.... but generally speaking, thread after thread is really undermining that assumption.

It seems to me that many believe our government never lies, and they could not possibly hate Trump enough to lie in order to remove him. I see many people that do not even question what is to gain by Trump's removal by those seeking it.

3) I have my problems with his policies, no doubt. I find some of them downright awful/prejudice; some misguided; some are CLEARLY the work of bullying; some are just stupid. Some are okay I just disagree with them.
Again, my issue is with how he comports himself and treats others. I can totally disagree with candidates and not feel they are a bad person. I'm POSITIVE I would have usually disagreed with any of the Republican candidates and their decisions; BUT, the quality of their character would not be questions every time they put out a tweet.

Oh he is definitely bullish, no doubt about it. Come hell or high water Trump is going to do exactly what he set out to do. You don't tell him no. And many people can not stand that. When you try to explain that Trump is within his authority in being pig headed on an issue they go nuts. Trump is a fighter, and he is not going to stop until he gets things done. When people keep trying to throw more and more falsehoods as 'checks and balances' he just digs in like a tick.

His tweets are brilliant. By doing so he cannot be contained by the media, and is not reliant on someone posting his narrative for him. I know it angers some people but he knows how to get his voice out.

 

[stevil]

This is not even close to accurate. This man draws crowds like a rock star. Some of his rallies have 40 to 60 thousand people outside of the venue watching live on huge screens. This is of course "fact checked", but if you have ever been to one you have seen the crowds. The reality is nowhere near on par with the narrative, and in many ways that hinders the left, because they have no real grasp of the massive amounts of people that go to listen to this politician speak. This man has groupies that tour the nation and camp outside of venues for days to make sure they "get into" every rallie he gives.

When I go to an Iron Maiden concert, then I find that there are thousands and thousands of Iron Maiden fans.
But when an IM concert isn't on, I find it hard to find other IM fans.
Does this mean that Iron Maiden is the most popular band in the world or does it not really tell me much other than that Maiden fans tend to travel large distances and congregate around where an IM concert is.

I can't even pump gas into my car before going to work, while wearing a MAGA hat, without an altercation in my area. It is ridiculous. If you put a bumper sticker on your car, there is a very real chance your windows will get busted out. This isn't a joke. These people are nuts. While it is not all liberals/left that conduct these actions, liberal officials do not disavow such actions and even alluded them.



Yes, there is normal like an individual like yourself. (and many here on this forum) Trying to have a conversation and talk things out. Then there are these complet nut jobs that can't even form a independent thought. They are dangerous. 100% on the real, I find them a credible threat to my life and will/do act accordingly. Scream at me all you want... you put your hands on me I am in fear of my life and do whatever is necessary to survive that situation. That is not a joke or just a flippant comment to make myself look tough. I fear some of these people. They are nuts. I have bad hips and cannot run. So if I cannot walk away.....

I am sorry to hear that you go through this.
You have every right to support whatever political party you want to support, and every right to wear a MAGA hat if you want to.

Personally, I wouldn't be risking my own life in order to wear a particular hat. But this is your life and your choice.

I also wouldn't walk through a black neighborhood in USA with a "White lives matter" shirt on, and I wouldn't wear a shirt in Mexico saying "Mexicans are drug dealers, criminals and rapists" and on the back "some, I assume are good people too"

It's not your fault that people physically attack you. They shouldn't do that. You have every right to wear what you want. But sometimes reality and ideology clash. I personally wouldn't risk my life in order to prove that I should have freedom of speech. I personally don't delve into political or religious differences with people I meet. I try to find commonalities to talk about rather than rub in our differences.

Admittedly, I know Pence's name: Mike. That's about it. Well he is married.... I know that too. But I agree, this is about Trump himself rather than policy, law, or anything it is made out to be.

He is very religious. Would probably be all for outlawing abortion, not allowing gays to get married and giving people the right to discriminate based on religious grounds.
I doubt he would be as publicly confronting as Trump, hence he would probably be able to focus more on the Republican agenda rather than worrying about what nickname to call someone that is perceived to have slighted him. You would get alot more achieved with him.

BTW - He calls his lovely wife "Mother". Not too sure how well that goes down in the bedroom. LOL

And I contend it is based on emotion fueled by perception and media.

I tend to find that main stream media is much less emotional than Fox news opinion shows.
I'd highly recommend viewing Rachel Maddow. She lays out lots of information, lots of in depth details and does it while smiling. She doesn't work up her audience into an emotional rage.

Not be me. Be them. Stop having my own views and accept theirs.

How do they stop you from being you?
What is it that you'd like to say, that they stop you from saying?
I mean, the social media sites?
Generally they let most things go, it's only pretty extreme stuff that they censor.

 

[stevil]

I empathise with people, and even agree that Trump is brutish at time.

 

[Skreeper]

No. Antifa affiliates themselves with the left, and commits violent acts over leftist ideals.

Antifa is the answer to the age-old question: "What happens when you poke the bear too much?"

 

[LostMarbels]

When I go to an Iron Maiden concert, then I find that there are thousands and thousands of Iron Maiden fans.
But when an IM concert isn't on, I find it hard to find other IM fans.
Does this mean that Iron Maiden is the most popular band in the world or does it not really tell me much other than that Maiden fans tend to travel large distances and congregate around where an IM concert is.

Not even the same. A concert is entertainment. Crowds are expected. For tens of thousands of people to show up to a political rally and listen to a politician drone on for hours is amazing. There is no way of diminishing that. Crowds so large when Trump enters the room the roar distorts the audio on your camera and makes your ears ring.

And Trump doesn't need to be everyone's favorite. He just needs more constituents than his rivals, and his following is massive. Put all of the democrat candidates in the same rally and they will not pull the crowds Trump does on his own.

Personally, I wouldn't be risking my own life in order to wear a particular hat. But this is your life and your choice.

I only wore it twice. At and from the rally I bought it at, and once on the drive to work. All I did was go in the store to prepay and pump gas. But that was enough to give me a reputation.

I also wouldn't walk through a black neighborhood in USA with a "White lives matter" shirt on, and I wouldn't wear a shirt in Mexico saying "Mexicans are drug dealers, criminals and rapists" and on the back "some, I assume are good people too"

This is part of the lunacy I am talking about. How do you equate a political slogan to a racially motivated comment?

I personally wouldn't risk my life in order to prove that I should have freedom of speech.

But I will, and I will defend myself as well as that right.

BTW - He calls his lovely wife "Mother". Not too sure how well that goes down in the bedroom. LOL

TMI... I need bleach!

I tend to find that main stream media is much less emotional than Fox news opinion shows.
I'd highly recommend viewing Rachel Maddow. She lays out lots of information, lots of in depth details and does it while smiling. She doesn't work up her audience into an emotional rage.

Madcow? Oh no ty sir. I tend to stay away from MSM. tend to do independent research. Before you say it... Fox is MSM.

How do they stop you from being you?

Look at your own comment. You believe wearing a hat is a threat to your life. Come on, think about that.

Generally they let most things go, it's only pretty extreme stuff that they censor.

Not really. It is what they deem as extreme. And if you get a good size following you will get targeted. The other thing is, it is not enough if you do not talk about hot issues. If you do not speak against certain issues you will get harassed.

 

[LostMarbels]

"What happens when you poke the bear too much?"

Trump.....

 

[Skreeper]

Trump.....

We get Trump, you get Antifa. Fair trade?

 

[LostMarbels]

We get Trump, you get Antifa. Fair trade?

What are you going on about? Your from Europe, you have antifa.

 

[LostMarbels]

Even more so Germany: Antifaschistische Aktion

 

[Skreeper]

Even more so Germany: Antifaschistische Aktion

I am well aware that Antifa exists in my country and it's hardly surprising with the rise of the right. I personally wouldn't join them or resort to violence but some people might feel justified in doing so.

 

[LostMarbels]

I am well aware that Antifa exists in my country and it's hardly surprising with the rise of the right. I personally wouldn't join them or resort to violence but some people might feel justified in doing so.

So then you are also aware of the Prisma terror document, and how antifa there also targets conservative entities?

 

[Skreeper]

So the you are also aware of the Prisma terror document, and how antifa there also targets conservative entities?

Yes I am aware. I mean political violence has been a rather effective tool throughout history so why would that surprise me?

 

[stevil]

This is part of the lunacy I am talking about. How do you equate a political slogan to a racially motivated comment?

I wasn't stating that they are exactly the same thing.
Just stating that it is possible to be in the "right" but also to be provoking people too.
Why do something, if you know it is going to provoke them? Why do it if you think some of them might get violent against you?

But I will, and I will defend myself as well as that right.

You da man!

Madcow?

Did you really need to come up with an insulting nickname for her?

Look at your own comment. You believe wearing a hat is a threat to your life. Come on, think about that.

You told me that you would be in danger...

Not really. It is what they deem as extreme.

And that's the thing right there.

I assume there are some things you could say that you would think are "normal" but you would expect others to take as being "extreme".

I can't say the same of myself. I don't think I have any views that would be considered extreme or would be banned from social media sites. I don't think it is a liberal thing, just a decency thing.

 

[LostMarbels]

Yes I am aware. I mean political violence has been a rather effective tool throughout history so why would that surprise me?

Because many in America do not realise who antifa actually is. Over here it is a bunch of snotty nosed brats playing dress up. So far.... Where your from they will kill you. They are a communist-anarchist militia movement that aspires to forcibly overthrow the United States government...

And they vote democrat.

 

[Skreeper]

Because many in America do not realise who antifa actually is. Over here it is a bunch of snotty nosed brats playing dress up. So far.... Where your from they will kill you. They are a communist-anarchist militia movement that aspires to forcibly overthrow the United States government...

And they vote democrat.

A communist-anarchist militia movement? That made me chuckle.

I'm very left leaning and the couple of antifa individuals I have talked to simply see themselves as a movement against the rise of fascism, conservatism and nationalism.