Christian Anarchism

[Kate30]

I have just read a little more carefully 2 Thessalonians 3:6-12 and find it pure Christian Anarchism. I find no reference whatsoever to secular authority or civil government. The Kingdom of God is Within You, as Tolstoy would say.
BTW I use The Good News Bible, it's much easier to understand. In English, of course!

( The kingdom of God has come unto you ) the bible does say. Tolstoy was very deep with what he wrote as most Russian writers generally are, especially when he speaks of the kingdom of God being in you. Norman the bible is a very deep book when it comes to understanding the meaning of life as well. I do find the good news bible most uplifting and relaxing also especially when reading the psalms. In what way do you view anarchism as being compatible with the Christian Faith

 

[Norman70]

I have just done a brief search on the etymology of the words institute and institution. They are middle English and derived from Latin, therefore it cannot occur in the original Scriptures.
However a lexicon search gave 1300 references, many of them from the Scriptures. I browsed a few of the Scriptures, but have not yet found one which refers to the universal church of Christ as an institution.
In the SDA Quarterly " Oneness In Christ" they assert quite clearly that they are not the universal church of Christ. They explain that this is metaphorically the Body of Christ of which He is the Head. I say any attempt to institutionalise this spiritual connection with God through Christ is a man-made device, inspired by the devil.
Of course I am not saying Christians who attend established Churches are devil worshippers! They are, however, misguided, and only a tiny few in any Church have a sound spiritual relationship with God, as clearly explained in the SDA Quarterly.
Here lies what we believe is our spiritual misgivings about not attending a Church.
My wife and myself, with Jesus, are all we need.

 

[Norman70]

In what way do you view anarchism as being compatible with the Christian Faith

I am currently trying to work my way through the many Scriptures quoted by declared Christian Anarchists which are in line with non-violent anarchism. There are many (in fact I am beginning to believe the whole of the Bible!). The favourite one is the Sermon on the Mount of course, and then we have Acts 4:32-37, and 1 Samuel 8.

 

[Norman70]

Not put off, but a little disappointed. The title of the thread mentions Christian Anarchism, but the body of the post doesn't have a lot to do with it. I've met quite a few Christians online, that are very literally into a Christian version of Anarchy. Many of these people were very much against any sort of institutional aspect of Christianity etc. These people often were into postmodern and "Emergent" Christianity and read books by people like Brian Mclaren and others.

Only recently have I heard about intentional communities. If I had heard of them in my early twenties I might well have become involved, but worldly pleasures took precedence and my interest in political anarchism made me foolishly think that if I became a state school teacher of science I could change the world. That optimism lasted about five years, but I enjoyed teaching so much, and my hedonism, that I stayed as a teacher for another 40 years! Only in later years did my interest in Christianity help to alleviate my now thoroughly developed pessimism about the future of mankind in this world.

 

[Kate30]

Only recently have I heard about intentional communities. If I had heard of them in my early twenties I might well have become involved, but worldly pleasures took precedence and my interest in political anarchism made me foolishly think that if I became a state school teacher of science I could change the world. That optimism lasted about five years, but I enjoyed teaching so much, and my hedonism, that I stayed as a teacher for another 40 years! Only in later years did my interest in Christianity help to alleviate my now thoroughly developed pessimism about the future of mankind in this world.

Norman we do all have dreams. You once believed in making the world a better place nothing wrong with that. As to hedonism was that such a bad thing. That is the pursuit of absolute happiness and pleasure is it not . Actually to live is one of the rarest things to be found in our world. Most people just simply exist from day to day to survive that’s all.

 

[Soyeong]

Please do not be put off by the title of this thread. Because of the pejorative use of the word anarchy, by politicians, the mainstream media and the general public I am tending to avoid stating my interest in it (more or less my adult life) when in fellowship with other Christians. Kingdom Christians has been one suggested alternative.
Claiming to be a member of the universal church of Christ, as clearly described in a recent SDA Quarterly " Oneness In Christ", with excellent Scripture references and fascinating questions for discussion in their Sabbath School, is more my cup of tea.
In such a discussion as a visitor, referring to their quoted Scripture, Acts 4:32-37, the members simply laughed and said it would not work. I did not ask them why, I knew. My question now then is why do so many Christians attend an established, institutionalised and probably denominational Church? Tithing is definitely out for me.

Every kingdom has laws that govern the conduct of its citizens and God's Law is straightforwardly the Law of God's Kingdom. Love without structure is just as worthless as structure without love. God gave the Law to teach us how to walk in His ways and to express His character traits through our actions in accordance with His nature (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7). Next to being about how to love God, the Law is about how to love our neighbor, and was not given to individuals, but to a nation, so it was intended to be followed as part of a community of believers, and many of its law can only be followed as part of a community. In Hebrews 10:24-25, we are instructed to spur one another on to doing good works and to not neglect to meet together.

What do you have against God's command to tithe?

 

[Norman70]

What do you have against God's command to tithe?

To begin, I do not take everything in the Bible literally. If I did I may as well be a Muslim. The human writers of the books of the Bible may well have been inspired by God, but so then could much of everything that has ever been written be similarly inspired, including some of our outpourings here on CF!
Malachi was quite rightly trying to encourage the Israelites to pay their tithes according to the Law, but Jesus wanted the Law to be respected by everyone. He saw the hypocrisy of the priests and therefore the paying of tithes had nothing to do with God.
How on earth can we rob God? Malachi wrote it, but I do not believe God commanded it. In fact, He commands nothing, He has given us free will. All He wants is our love.
In a true Christian community all goods and wealth are pooled and divided between each according to their needs. Utopia this may be, but with the Second Coming of Christ it will arise.

 

[Aldebaran]

In a true Christian community all goods and wealth are pooled and divided between each according to their needs. Utopia this may be, but with the Second Coming of Christ it will arise.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is something that worked for Karl Marx at one time, but not for those who lived under it. But yes, when Christ comes back, it would work. But when it's implemented by man, it doesn't.

 

[Soyeong]

To begin, I do not take everything in the Bible literally. If I did I may as well be a Muslim. The human writers of the books of the Bible may well have been inspired by God, but so then could much of everything that has ever been written be similarly inspired, including some of our outpourings here on CF!

When you say you don't take everything literally, are you saying that you don't take everything as being historically accurate or are you saying that you think that Bible sometimes uses figurative language? And what about that would mean that you might as well be a Muslim? If someone takes idioms literally, then they really end up in a pickle.

Malachi was quite rightly trying to encourage the Israelites to pay their tithes according to the Law, but Jesus wanted the Law to be respected by everyone. He saw the hypocrisy of the priests and therefore the paying of tithes had nothing to do with God.

Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for obeying God's Law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example in Mark 1:14-15, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they should be doing without neglecting the weightier matters of the Law, so he was not speaking against tithing or against obeying any of God's other laws, but rather he was teaching how to correctly obey them. The right solution to incorrectly obeying God's Law is to start obeying it correctly, not to stop obeying God, a a criticism of what the Pharisees were teaching or doing should not be understood as being a criticism of what God commanded.

How on earth can we rob God? Malachi wrote it, but I do not believe God commanded it. In fact, He commands nothing, He has given us free will. All He wants is our love.
In a true Christian community all goods and wealth are pooled and divided between each according to their needs. Utopia this may be, but with the Second Coming of Christ it will arise.

All of the laws given by God in the Bible can be put into one or both of the categories of being instructions for how God wants us to love Him or for how He wants us to love our neighbor, so they all hang on the greatest two commandments because they are all examples of what it looks like to correctly obey them. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. In other words, if you were to compare the life of someone living in obedience to greatest two commandment with the life of someone who lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law then there would be no difference because both would look like the same example that Jesus set for to follow. So that is how we are to love as he loved, and wanting nothing but our love is not distinct from all of God's other commands. There is no sense in someone wanting just to obey God's instruction love while wanting nothing to do with following His instructions for how He wants us to love.

 

[Norman70]

When you say you don't take everything literally, are you saying that you don't take everything as being historically accurate or are you saying that you think that Bible sometimes uses figurative language? And what about that would mean that you might as well be a Muslim? If someone takes idioms literally, then they really end up in a pickle.

Much of the Bible is historically accurate and it abounds in figurative language. I know nothing about the Quran, except Muslims claim it was written by God. My reference was to indicate that those who take the whole of the Bible literally (literalists) claim every word in it is the word of God, and written by Him, as when He was supposed to write the Ten Commandments on tablets of stone. There are some lovely stories in the Bible, and we are free to believe what we like. Our free will is a gift of God.
Let me focus now on the word command. From etymology it is derived from middle English, therefore could not have occurred in the original writings.To command means to order or compel by authority. As an anarchist I am not against authority but I am against authoritarianism, which compels by force and the threat of punishment.
God is not a punishing God. All those incidents and words in the Bible describing His punishing actions are stories written by mortal men. I really do not believe He turned people (Lot's wife was it?) into pillars of salt. He does not do that sort of thing.
He does not command us to do anything. He tries to guide us as to how we should love Him, but we are never commanded under the threat of punishment. That is the workings of the devil. God bless.

 

[Norman70]

Before I return to my purpose for opening this thread, that is to discuss with other Christians the reasons why they attend established churches, when my wife and myself categorically do not, and are not likely to even if we were able or had the support required, I want to present one or to more ideas behind my support for Christian Anarchism. Needless to say, my wife, like most Christians it appears, is not comfortable with the title Christian Anarchism, and I have already suggested that something like Kingdom Christianity might be more acceptable. However, I too am reluctant to attach any qualifying label to myself, merely to say I try to be a Christian, and will continue to try until the Second Coming of Christ, if that occurs in my lifetime. More later, my medical needs have arisen, administered by my dear wife.

 

[Kate30]

Before I return to my purpose for opening this thread, that is to discuss with other Christians the reasons why they attend established churches, when my wife and myself categorically do not, and are not likely to even if we were able or had the support required, I want to present one or to more ideas behind my support for Christian Anarchism. Needless to say, my wife, like most Christians it appears, is not comfortable with the title Christian Anarchism, and I have already suggested that something like Kingdom Christianity might be more acceptable. However, I too am reluctant to attach any qualifying label to myself, merely to say I try to be a Christian, and will continue to try until the Second Coming of Christ, if that occurs in my lifetime. More later, my medical needs have arisen, administered by my dear wife.

Norman whether you and your wife decide to be amongst believers or outside the camp I’m sure the Lord understands. His fellowship and love for you both does not change. The wonderful words of Jesus ( Lo I am with you always , even unto the end of the world.

 

[Norman70]

Jesus DID want to set up a church. He gave the Apostles the Great Commission to go to the world and do so.

Also, as humans we need an institution in order to maintain our Christian traditions and pass them on to the next generation.

A coal removed from the others will cool off and not make heat.

I will respond to these statements one at a time, and with great respect to the poster.

1.There is nowhere in the Scriptures which says that Jesus wanted a Church, established and institutionalised according to the mores of mortal human endeavour. We are all sinful, and we will corrupt it. Jesus wanted us to relate to Him and be part of His Body, a spiritual connection, little to do with what goes on in Churches today, or ever since the state interfered. The devil was, and still is, very clever.

2. Many of our Christian traditions are hardly worth passing onto future generations. We have the reading of our chosen Bible, or to study it, deeply if so inclined and even become a scholar, but each person must search their own souls, read other writings (including choosing some stuff here!) as to whether or not they want to be accepted as part of the Body of Christ. Going to an established Church does not ensure that. Everyone born must be born again in their lifetime, under their own steam, and with God's gift of free will they can choose which path to take. He certainly does not coerce anyone to follow Him into an established Church.

3. Removing ourselves from the works of the devil makes us burn more fiercely for God. We must decide what are the works of the devil. We hope and pray God will help us to choose wisely.

 

[Norman70]

Maybe you just don't like tithing.
I don't believe in tithing myself. If I felt forced to do so, I'd be totally turned off by this. One should give joyfully -

Tithing is quoted as one of God's Laws, but God does not command us to do anything. His Laws exist to help us how to love Him but they were never written in stone. The writing of the Ten Commandments (there has to be a mis-translation there, the word command has foundations in middle English, centuries later after human society had become totally corrupted by authoritarianism, introduced by the devil), supposedly in stone, is just a story using the word stone metaphorically.
I believe we only get closer to God by returning His undoubted Love, but that is a spiritual endeavour and He does not command us to obey His Laws by coercion or under threat of punishment. God is a loving God, not a punishing one
Throughout this thread I am repeating myself, but so does the Bible repeat itself. C. S. Lewis calls it parallelism.
My love for God means that I try to give plenty, and I agree there is joy in giving. But I give only directly to the poor and needy, but never to charities or institutions. In this world I do not mind paying monetary funds for things I need, even my taxes, although much of those are spent on things we don't need, like the military. One way in this world is to live below the tax threshold.
I will pay for a spiritual experience like listening to music or watching drama. I admire architecture and would pay at the door of a Church, but congregational services leave me cold.
Fresh air, the sky, and nearby natural surroundings are free and there is great spiritual growth by experiencing them. It is all we need, with the love of God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Tithing is quoted as one of God's Laws, but God does not command us to do anything. His Laws exist to help us how to love Him but they were never written in stone. The writing of the Ten Commandments (there has to be a mis-translation there, the word command has foundations in middle English, centuries later after human society had become totally corrupted by authoritarianism, introduced by the devil), supposedly in stone, is just a story using the word stone metaphorically.
I believe we only get closer to God by returning His undoubted Love, but that is a spiritual endeavour and He does not command us to obey His Laws by coercion or under threat of punishment. God is a loving God, not a punishing one
Throughout this thread I am repeating myself, but so does the Bible repeat itself. C. S. Lewis calls it parallelism.
My love for God means that I try to give plenty, and I agree there is joy in giving. But I give only directly to the poor and needy, but never to charities or institutions. In this world I do not mind paying monetary funds for things I need, even my taxes, although much of those are spent on things we don't need, like the military. One way in this world is to live below the tax threshold.
I will pay for a spiritual experience like listening to music or watching drama. I admire architecture and would pay at the door of a Church, but congregational services leave me cold.
Fresh air, the sky, and nearby natural surroundings are free and there is great spiritual growth by experiencing them. It is all we need, with the love of God.

Well Norman,
I agree with you.
I just don't think the bible tells us to tithe anywhere.
In the O.T. tithing was necessary because of widows left alone and poor persons. Even Ruth was told to leave some grain on the threshing floor for the poor.

I don't really like to pay my taxes because I know a lot of money gets wasted and spent on unnecessary things, just like you said. Corruption is always a problem. If the govt was more efficient, I'm sure we could all pay much less of our earned income to this big entity called the govt.

All God really wants is our love. The money we give to the church goes to maintain the church -- nothing is free in this life.

I also see God in nature. I've been to your island and liked to visit all the natural places...I see God in everything beautiful.

Here is a place that I liked a lot...

 

[Norman70]

Before I continue my efforts to respond to all who have posted here I want to write about some fundamental issues I have always been concerned with, and now continue to do so whilst trying to be a Christian.
God created the natural world, and now with His gift of science we must say the universe. He created us in His image and placed us on the earth, a small and insignificant planet in his created universe. There may be other life-forms elsewhere but I do not believe any of them will be in His image and His evolutionary mechanism operating there will never produce the likes of us. The Second Coming of Christ will come, which will result in the creation of a new universe. Must stop there, my wife has prepared lunch!

 

[Kate30]

Tithing is quoted as one of God's Laws, but God does not command us to do anything. His Laws exist to help us how to love Him but they were never written in stone. The writing of the Ten Commandments (there has to be a mis-translation there, the word command has foundations in middle English, centuries later after human society had become totally corrupted by authoritarianism, introduced by the devil), supposedly in stone, is just a story using the word stone metaphorically.
I believe we only get closer to God by returning His undoubted Love, but that is a spiritual endeavour and He does not command us to obey His Laws by coercion or under threat of punishment. God is a loving God, not a punishing one
Throughout this thread I am repeating myself, but so does the Bible repeat itself. C. S. Lewis calls it parallelism.
My love for God means that I try to give plenty, and I agree there is joy in giving. But I give only directly to the poor and needy, but never to charities or institutions. In this world I do not mind paying monetary funds for things I need, even my taxes, although much of those are spent on things we don't need, like the military. One way in this world is to live below the tax threshold.
I will pay for a spiritual experience like listening to music or watching drama. I admire architecture and would pay at the door of a Church, but congregational services leave me cold.
Fresh air, the sky, and nearby natural surroundings are free and there is great spiritual growth by experiencing them. It is all we need, with the love of God.

Norman I do agree with many things you say. I can fully understand why you not like the tithe especially with the way the mega churches are structured these days. At least you know where your money goes. But not to worry so much, If someone should use for greed and gain. Well than the God does know our hearts and why we have given despite the other persons motives. Yes giving is always much better as it seems to warm our hearts at the same time, especially when bringing happiness and pleasure to others. Norman as to the 10 commandments I do believe it to be a literal account. Simply because the law does bring us into the realisation that none of us are able to keep them, nor able to follow fully. And that does point us towards Jesus Christ. Who was able to do. And also able to reach out to those who could not. Surely we not need to interpret the bible metaphorically with such historic accounts. Could you explain to me some more how the 10 commandments were a mistranslation. I would be interested in the references and books you have researched on that so I can search some more myself.

 

[Norman70]

Could you explain to me some more how the 10 commandments were a mis-translation

Wow! You are asking me to engage in an activity which has never entered my reading of the Bible, I am no scholar! My post obviously gives the impression that I KNOW that there is a mis-translation. In these matters knowledge is a philosophical affair, as any student will find out when their professor asks them how do they know they are sitting on a chair!
I ought to have said something like "I think it possible that .....". Anyway, prompted by your request, I can tell you I only use the website www.biblestudytools.com and there only read the Good News Bible. Searching for the phrase "The Ten Commandments" I briefly discovered only GNB translates the original languages as commandments. Other English translations mostly use the word testimonies. Thank you for your question. God bless.

 

[Norman70]

Continuing with my views concerning some fundamental issues, I have alluded to the natural universe which we discern with our five senses, aided by science, technology, engineering and mathematics (this one sometimes called the language of God), all gifts of God to help us explore His created universe and bring us closer to Him. It's a great pity the devil has intervened, but to paraphrase, that's another story.
Now as well as this natural universe there also in true reality exists a supernatural realm, and we cannot reference it in relation to our present understanding of the space-time of the natural universe. It is just that, supernatural, and will never be discerned with our given gifts already mentioned, but God has also given us, alone amongst his created and sentient beings, a spiritual nature to enable us to form a relationship with Him. This is the fundamental foundation of all religious experience.
We have also been given free will therefore we can choose which religion to follow, and God does not coerce us to be Christians. However, if we believe He came to earth as Jesus according to His great, yet simple, plan, then our eternal salvation is assured, even though we do not really know what that would be like. As C. S. Lewis said, Christianity is the only religion which makes complete sense.

 

[Norman70]

To continue, our world, and I use the word world now rather than earth, which as I have said is a small planet encircling the sun in God's created universe and governed by natural physical laws which we are investigating, our world, that is our total experiences of our mortal lives, is governed by the devil. He too, like God, is a spiritual being and if we believe in the supernatural we must believe in the existence of the devil. More later.