Was Augustine the one who created "Calvinism", and why?

[GodsGrace101]

I am neither Calvinistic, nor Arminian. I believe there are times when God exercises determinate foreknowledge, and times God uses indeterminate foreknowledge.

I agree with you.
I'm definitely not calvinistic in any way.
I most probably am not totally Arminian either.
I believe God gave us free will (libertarian free will)to make our own moral choice. This is the only way that we can be held responsible for those choices, by God.

I also believe God did choose some special persons in the bible: Abraham would be one,,,Mary would be another. However, I believe this was done in very rare occasions.

 

[BABerean2]

The reason I use both the LBC and WCF is because the LBC is a perfected version of the WCF.

If either of them is "perfected", why do they ignore what Paul said about the Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17?

Why do they use the term "the moral law", which is an invented term, not found in the Bible?

Why do they ignore the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I agree with you.
I'm definitely not calvinistic in any way.
I most probably am not totally Arminian either.
I believe God gave us free will (libertarian free will)to make our own moral choice. This is the only way that we can be held responsible for those choices, by God.

I also believe God did choose some special persons in the bible: Abraham would be one,,,Mary would be another. However, I believe this was done in very rare occasions.

Here is something to consider:

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God wanted Adam to make a good choice. But to make a choice, Adam had to have an alternate option. Satan provided false information, while God offered the truth. Adam had to determine "who" was telling the truth. Satan provided an influence in a negative way; while God simply provided the truth to influence Adam in a positive manner. But the key thing in this event is that was provided on a conscious level; again, God being truthful, and Satan being deceitful. Adam had to choose between the two influences. (Exactly what each of us must do each day.)

 

[thomas15]

Like others here I haven't made up my mind if Calvinistic or Arminian or a third option.

Lots of problems with the theology of team Augustine/Calvin but the biggest problem I see is coming to grips with a God that has cast aside the Jews due to their unfaithfulness but offers once saved always saved peace of mind to gentile Christians who also can and do act just as unfaithful.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Like others here I haven't made up my mind if Calvinistic or Arminian or a third option.

Lots of problems with the theology of team Augustine/Calvin but the biggest problem I see is coming to grips with a God that has cast aside the Jews due to their unfaithfulness but offers once saved always saved peace of mind to gentile Christians who also can and do act just as unfaithful.

God hasn't cast aside the Israelites, He isn't done with them yet.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Like others here I haven't made up my mind if Calvinistic or Arminian or a third option.

Lots of problems with the theology of team Augustine/Calvin but the biggest problem I see is coming to grips with a God that has cast aside the Jews due to their unfaithfulness but offers once saved always saved peace of mind to gentile Christians who also can and do act just as unfaithful.

1) Individual salvation has always been by grace, through faith.
2) Israel was God's chosen NATION to show His greatness to the world.
3) Because Israel failed to do that which God called them ...

10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Romans

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Romans

God is using the Gentiles to provoke the Israelites to jealousy.

Biblical "jealousy" isn't covetousness ... rather, "jealousy" is wanting what another has, that rightfully belongs to you.

E.g. When a man's wife is allured to another man, the husband of that wife is rightly "jealous" of the other man.

By allowing the Gentiles to present God during the "Church age", God is provoking (causing the Israelites to say, Wait a minute, that is MY God they're presenting to the world) the Israelites to Jealousy.

4. After the Church age, God will open the eyes of the Israelites NATIONALLY (not individually), and then will reign on Earth from the throne of David.

 

[thomas15]

I'm not a Dr. like you but I know a few things.

 

[BABerean2]

After the Church age, God will open the eyes of the Israelites NATIONALLY (not individually), and then will reign on Earth from the throne of David.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

Are you then a Preterist?

 

[Dr. Jack]

I'm not a Dr. like you but I know a few things.

That wasn't meant in a condescending manner, it was meant only to present my position.

 

[BABerean2]

Are you then a Preterist?

I am a guy who used to attend a church where the Sunday School teachers taught the Two Peoples of God doctrine, that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

When I found the words "after the tribulation" in Matthew 24, my preacher told me the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews.
Then I found Christ talking about the Church in Matthew chapter 16, and also found the Great Commission to the Church at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
Then I tried to find out why my preacher was not telling me the truth.
What I discovered is found below.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Here is something to consider:

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God wanted Adam to make a good choice. But to make a choice, Adam had to have an alternate option. Satan provided false information, while God offered the truth. Adam had to determine "who" was telling the truth. Satan provided an influence in a negative way; while God simply provided the truth to influence Adam in a positive manner. But the key thing in this event is that was provided on a conscious level; again, God being truthful, and Satan being deceitful. Adam had to choose between the two influences. (Exactly what each of us must do each day.)

Of course. I can't remember why we're speaking about Adam, but of course you're right about it all.

I also agree with your comments about the Jewish nation to another poster. This would be in Romans 9 to 11 and many believe those chapters to be about personal salvation when, in fact, they're about corporate salvation.

 

[Dave L]

If either of them is "perfected", why do they ignore what Paul said about the Sabbath in Colossians 2:16-17?

Why do they use the term "the moral law", which is an invented term, not found in the Bible?

Why do they ignore the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

.

You can claim what you want. But your position of Arminian free will always ends with turning the gospel of grace into salvation by law and works.

 

[Dave L]

If God is controlling the reasons we choose, He is still manipulating the situations at a level beyond our knowledge; either way, it is deceit.

God cannot sin.

 

[Dr. Jack]

God cannot sin.

I am not saying the God of the Christian Bible sins; I am saying that IF you believe that God is controlling the reasons we choose (especially at a level that is NOT known to us, we are being deceived, or manipulated into choosing the way we do. That is a practice that the Holy God of the Bible says is sin.

When God surrounds us with so much evidence of His eternal glory (Romans 1), it isn't a matter of doing a work to be saved. Rather, it is an acknowledgment of the preponderance of evidence that God has presented in the temporal/physical realm; that we can therefore logically reason, and accept by faith that God has provided the means whereby we can be saved.

I acknowledged my sinfulness before God, as well as my inability to save myself. I saw the provision God has made for me at Calvary, and accepted His offer to save me.

I was not born again by my will, but by my will I did accept the provision that was offered to me.

I was not born again because of a bloodline that I was part of, but I was placed into the bloodline of the redeeming blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

I did not do some work in my flesh,; but I did accept the work in the flesh that Jesus did for me.

 

[Dave L]

I am not saying the God of the Christian Bible sins; I am saying that IF you believe that God is controlling the reasons we choose (especially at a level that is NOT known to us, we are being deceived, or manipulated into choosing the way we do. That is a practice that the Holy God of the Bible says is sin.

When God surrounds us with so much evidence of His eternal glory (Romans 1), it isn't a matter of doing a work to be saved. Rather, it is an acknowledgment of the preponderance of evidence that God has presented in the temporal/physical realm; that we can therefore logically reason, and accept by faith that God has provided the means whereby we can be saved.

I acknowledged my sinfulness before God, as well as my inability to save myself. I saw the provision God has made for me at Calvary, and accepted His offer to save me.

I was not born again by my will, but by my will I did accept the provision that was offered to me.

I was not born again because of a bloodline that I was part of, but I was placed into the bloodline of the redeeming blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

I did not do some work in my flesh,; but I did accept the work in the flesh that Jesus did for me.

Even if your perception is true, (I don't believe it is), God cannot sin even if he violates the Ten Commandments.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I am a guy who used to attend a church where the Sunday School teachers taught the Two Peoples of God doctrine, that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

When I found the words "after the tribulation" in Matthew 24, my preacher told me the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews.
Then I found Christ talking about the Church in Matthew chapter 16, and also found the Great Commission to the Church at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
Then I tried to find out why my preacher was not telling me the truth.
What I discovered is found below.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

Most people, (especially those who oppose Dispensationalism) believe that Dispensationalism actually began with Darby. I am providing a link o a short article that shows that the elements of Dispensationalism did not begin with Darby.

I agree with the general concept of Dispensationalism, but do NOT agree with works EVER being joined with the grace of God (as Schofield suggests).

Furthermore, I agree with Calvinism (only concerning OSAS), but in no way believe in "Unconditional Election" as it is based upon the predestination of souls to either heaven or hell.

The purpose of the provided link is ONLY to show historical evidence that Dispensationalism did NOT begin in either the 1800's, or even a few hundred years prior, as some suggest.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Even if your perception is true, (I don't believe it is), God cannot sin even if he violates the Ten Commandments.

Think about what you just said.

I think there is a concept you fail to grasp. That concept is that God's law is not subjective, but objective.

Let me clarify what I mean.

If God says, You shalt not kill, because He thinks it is wrong for you to kill, that is a subjective law. It is subjective in that it is based upon what God THINKS you should do, or not do.

But, that isn't what God says. God's law is objective because He is describing Himself.

When we say a house has four walls, that is an objective statement. We are describing established facts based upon an what is literally there. One can look and examine the house, and say, Yes, it has four walls.

When God said,

1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter

God was telling us objectively to be "holy", and as a example, or a template, use Him as our standard for what holiness is.

Hence, when God said, Thou shalt not kill; that is based upon His description of Himself. God never unjustly kills; for to do so would mean that He Himself has been disqualified from being "holy" from an objective position.

Hence, God cannot violate any of the 10 Commandments and still remain the objective standard of holiness.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Of course. I can't remember why we're speaking about Adam, but of course you're right about it all.

I also agree with your comments about the Jewish nation to another poster. This would be in Romans 9 to 11 and many believe those chapters to be about personal salvation when, in fact, they're about corporate salvation.

I mentioned Adam because one of the greatest aspects of Calvinism rests upon WHY Adam sinned. Augustine was of course in a position where he had to defend the sovereignty of God. But one can never defend one Bible doctrine at the expense of another Bible doctrine ... in this case, free will.

 

[Dave L]

Think about what you just said.

I think there is a concept you fail to grasp. That concept is that God's law is not subjective, but objective.

Let me clarify what I mean.

If God says, You shalt not kill, because He thinks it is wrong for you to kill, that is a subjective law. It is subjective in that it is based upon what God THINKS you should do, or not do.

But, that isn't what God says. God's law is objective because He is describing Himself.

When we say a house has four walls, that is an objective statement. We are describing established facts based upon an what is literally there. One can look and examine the house, and say, Yes, it has four walls.

When God said,

1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter

God was telling us objectively to be "holy", and as a example, or a template, use Him as our standard for what holiness is.

Hence, when God said, Thou shalt not kill; that is based upon His description of Himself. God never unjustly kills; for to do so would mean that He Himself has been disqualified from being "holy" from an objective position.

Hence, God cannot violate any of the 10 Commandments and still remain the objective standard of holiness.

God gave the Ten Commandments to sinners. He is sinless even if he breaks them because there is no law he is subject to. No other god he must answer to.