LDS LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

[Christian Apologist]

The Bible teaches us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us in the garden. His blood that He shed for us in the garden washes away our sins.

Where in The Bible or Book of Mormon does it teach the blood shed in the Garden washed away our sin ?

 

[He is the way]

JS never taught the true and awesome God we serve! Why do you prefer a god such as he portrays instead of the great God of the bible?? Why choose a god that can not create from nothing when there is one that does? Why choose a god that can not produce children that are the same substance as he, when there is one that has a One and Only Son that is? Why choose a god that only offers exaltation to a few, when there is a God that offers real salvation in a heaven in His presence for all? Why choose a god that needed the fall in order for us to have children, when there is the true God that created us to have children and gave us the privilege of doing so whether we had fallen or not--no help from Satan needed? Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did? Why choose a god that produces some sort of spirit children with some sort of heavenly mother and then has to have those children become human when the true God needed no such being and never produced but one child of His own substance but loves us enough to adopt as His own and He gave Adam and Eve the power to create themselves through their children down through the ages? Why believe in such an ineffectual weak god, when it is a lie and the real God is so much superior?
Is your wish for power through being the god of your own planet so great that it overrides the magnitude of the real blessings the True God offers? Is your need of being your own god so great that you would rather have a god you can walk up to, look in the eye and shake his hand that you can not see the Majestic, One and Only, True God so magnificent that you will fall on your knees in worship?
This remade earth is going to be our home and Jesus will be our temple and the One and only God of this entire universe will be the God of all the saved! Why choose something so little and doesn't exist, over One so Great who does?
Why believe in a son of god that came here and achieved greatness by keeping the commandments over a Son of the One and Only God who was of the same substance as the One and Only God of the Universe and was a partaker of a great, divine and Holy estate, who created everything and had billions of angels at His command and yet, He gave all that up to come down here and be one of us in order to save us by paying the price for our sins, having lived a holy and pure life to show us that through the same power of His Father, so can we? The price He paid was far beyond the agony and death He suffered on earth---He retains His humanity and His scars for eternity! They are what will keep sin from rising a 2nd time! The true God has a Son who paid once for all---no one ever need die again to save anyone else! Sin will be gone forever---not live on and on in other worlds that other gods have to save!

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Why not believe in the real God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and His real salvation and gifts, not just for this earth, but for all His creation?

You said: "Why choose a god that can not create from nothing"
Because God formed the world and He formed all things.

You said: "Why choose a god that can not produce children that are the same substance as he,when there is one that has a One and Only Son that is? "

God is able to make all of His sons Gods.

You said: "Why choose a god that only offers exaltation to a few, when there is a God that offers real salvation in a heaven in His presence for all?"

God offers exaltation to everyone.

You said: "Why choose a god that needed the fall in order for us to have children, when there is the true God that created us to have children and gave us the privilege of doing so whether we had fallen or not--no help from Satan needed?"

God knew what He was doing all along. He knew the beginning and the end and the plan of salvation. He knew what was needed. Jesus also knew and chose Judas as one of the twelve.

You said: "Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did?

?????????????????????

You said: "Why choose a god that produces some sort of spirit children with some sort of heavenly mother and then has to have those children become human when the true God needed no such being and never produced but one child of His own substance but loves us enough to adopt as His own and He gave Adam and Eve the power to create themselves through their children down through the ages?"

We believe in the equality of women. We are all brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You said: "Why believe in such an ineffectual weak god, when it is a lie and the real God is so much superior?"

We do not make God to suit our needs, we are to glorify God and do His will.

 

[He is the way]

Of course not! It was the expression of His intense debate within Himself about having to go to the cross! Of having to endure so much for us---it was an intense struggle! And who, in their right mind would be happy about it? Crucifixion was known, He knew what it entailed. Of course He suffered and agonized over such a decision! I'D OF GONE HOME!

He already knew and foretold that He was going to be crucified and die on the cross. It was the other cup, the agony and bleeding from every pore He was hoping would be removed, but it wasn't.

 

[He is the way]

Where in The Bible or Book of Mormon does it teach the blood shed in the Garden washed away our sin ?

It is more fully mentioned in the D&C:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:17 - 20)

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "Why choose a god that can not create from nothing"
Because God formed the world and He formed all things.

You said: "Why choose a god that can not produce children that are the same substance as he,when there is one that has a One and Only Son that is? "

God is able to make all of His sons Gods.

You said: "Why choose a god that only offers exaltation to a few, when there is a God that offers real salvation in a heaven in His presence for all?"

God offers exaltation to everyone.

You said: "Why choose a god that needed the fall in order for us to have children, when there is the true God that created us to have children and gave us the privilege of doing so whether we had fallen or not--no help from Satan needed?"

God knew what He was doing all along. He knew the beginning and the end and the plan of salvation. He knew what was needed. Jesus also knew and chose Judas as one of the twelve.

You said: "Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did?

?????????????????????

You said: "Why choose a god that produces some sort of spirit children with some sort of heavenly mother and then has to have those children become human when the true God needed no such being and never produced but one child of His own substance but loves us enough to adopt as His own and He gave Adam and Eve the power to create themselves through their children down through the ages?"

We believe in the equality of women. We are all brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You said: "Why believe in such an ineffectual weak god, when it is a lie and the real God is so much superior?"

We do not make God to suit our needs, we are to glorify God and do His will.

"Because God formed the world and He formed all things."
He spoke all things into being, then He formed--Psa_33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast

"God is able to make all of His sons Gods." "God offers exaltation to everyone."
Nah---He gives those that qualify their own planets---for which they have to die for their progenies sins all over again---that is no God--that's a little useless god. Ours makes us all His adopted children to live in His presence forever. Ours gives everyone that is saved(not just offers and a select few get)the same salvation in His presence forever.

"God knew what He was doing all along. He knew the beginning and the end and the plan of salvation. He knew what was needed. Jesus also knew and chose Judas as one of the twelve."

Which has nothing to do with Satan making the birth of children possible. God set salvation in motion long before we fell----the creation of children was possible from the time He said be fruitful and multiply.


You said: "Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did?

?????????????????????

You God could not protect His word from corruption---ours did. Wrong word.

"We believe in the equality of women. We are all brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | John 20:17)"

That has nothing to do with your god having spirit children when you say he is flesh and bones. And no you do not believe in equality of the sexes!! Exaltation means MEN are the god of their planet and the women are relegated to being his wives and producing children to populate his planet.
Our God says there is no difference in the salvation of men and women---it is the same salvation and yes--because Jesus, the Son/God--became human, He made Himself our brother. And we really are all brothers and sisters---one family.​

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

"We do not make God to suit our needs, we are to glorify God and do His will."​

But you do! You've turned God into a satisfier of your lusts for power and sex and so you become gods with multiple wives to populate you own planet, and turn around and say that is His will!!

​

 

[mmksparbud]

He already knew and foretold that He was going to be crucified and die on the cross. It was the other cup, the agony and bleeding from every pore He was hoping would be removed, but it wasn't.

The cup was His death on the cross!!! It was the agony of having to go through that that He wished would be removed---He was already bleeding from every pore over that agony of facing that---death was coming next.

 

[He is the way]

"Because God formed the world and He formed all things."
He spoke all things into being, then He formed--Psa_33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast

"God is able to make all of His sons Gods." "God offers exaltation to everyone."
Nah---He gives those that qualify their own planets---for which they have to die for their progenies sins all over again---that is no God--that's a little useless god. Ours makes us all His adopted children to live in His presence forever. Ours gives everyone that is saved(not just offers and a select few get)the same salvation in His presence forever.

"God knew what He was doing all along. He knew the beginning and the end and the plan of salvation. He knew what was needed. Jesus also knew and chose Judas as one of the twelve."

Which has nothing to do with Satan making the birth of children possible. God set salvation in motion long before we fell----the creation of children was possible from the time He said be fruitful and multiply.


You said: "Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did?

?????????????????????

You God could not protect His word from corruption---ours did. Wrong word.

"We believe in the equality of women. We are all brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ:
(New Testament | John 20:17)"

That has nothing to do with your god having spirit children when you say he is flesh and bones. And no you do not believe in equality of the sexes!! Exaltation means MEN are the god of their planet and the women are relegated to being his wives and producing children to populate his planet.
Our God says there is no difference in the salvation of men and women---it is the same salvation and yes--because Jesus, the Son/God--became human, He made Himself our brother. And we really are all brothers and sisters---one family.​

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

"We do not make God to suit our needs, we are to glorify God and do His will."​

But you do! You've turned God into a satisfier of your lusts for power and sex and so you become gods with multiple wives to populate you own planet, and turn around and say that is His will!!

​

Your opinion about what we believe is wrong. I see that you are doing your best to make us look bad, but it won't work.

 

[He is the way]

The cup was His death on the cross!!! It was the agony of having to go through that that He wished would be removed---He was already bleeding from every pore over that agony of facing that---death was coming next.

So you say. I believe differently.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your opinion about what we believe is wrong. I see that you are doing your best to make us look bad, but it won't work.

Here we go again---you don't say what the problem is, you just accuse me of trying to make you look bad. JS already did that. Not my fault you choose to believe in the god of JS instead of the God of the bible! The God of the bible is much more magnificent, Powerful, Majestic and loving than JS ever dreamed of. No one, not even the angels in heaven woukld ever go up to Him, look Him in the eye and shake His hand!!! What arrogance to try to bring God down to such a level!

 

[mmksparbud]

So you say. I believe differently.

Yes---I know! If He was already going through the agony and having every pore bleed from it---why bother to pray that cup be removed? What He was about to face and the weight of having every sin laid upon Him was the cup He wished removed---but I'm sure you will continue to believe whatever JS said.

 

[He is the way]

Here we go again---you don't say what the problem is, you just accuse me of trying to make you look bad. JS already did that. Not my fault you choose to believe in the god of JS instead of the God of the bible! The God of the bible is much more magnificent, Powerful, Majestic and loving than JS ever dreamed of. No one, not even the angels in heaven woukld ever go up to Him, look Him in the eye and shake His hand!!! What arrogance to try to bring God down to such a level!

God is LOVE and He wants us (His children) to be like Him. He gave us commandments of LOVE so we can learn to LOVE the way He loves.

 

[He is the way]

Yes---I know! If He was already going through the agony and having every pore bleed from it---why bother to pray that cup be removed? What He was about to face and the weight of having every sin laid upon Him was the cup He wished removed---but I'm sure you will continue to believe whatever JS said.

He asked that the cup be removed BEFORE the agony and the bleeding from every pore:

(New Testament | Luke 22:41 - 44)

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

 

[mmksparbud]

God is LOVE and He wants us (His children) to be like Him. He gave us commandments of LOVE so we can learn to LOVE the way He loves.

Which has nothing to do with anything that has been said.

 

[mmksparbud]

He asked that the cup be removed BEFORE the agony and the bleeding from every pore:

(New Testament | Luke 22:41 - 44)

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

You are free top continue in what JS taught all you want---
Luk 22:39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
Luk 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
Luk 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.


Are you saying that is was God's will for Him to sweat blood? Many people have done so.
It can be possible for someone to sweat blood if they rupture one or more of the sweat producing ducts. Because this is quite rare and the sweat producing ducts are so small, it is extremely hard to do. Even then, you aren't really sweating blood but rather bleeding from the duct.

A thorough search of the medical literature demonstrates that such a condition, while admittedly rare, does occur in humans. Commonly referred to as hematidrosis or hemohidrosis, this condition results in the excretion of blood or blood pigment in the sweat.

Under extreme stress---even animals have done so!

Again---the lamb bled to death---not just bled. It is death that is the price of sin, not bleeding from sweat pores!! The blood of the Lamb cleanses, because He shed it to the death! And unlike people and animals, He, who was pure and sinless, is the only one that can pay the price of death for our sins. It is His total shed blood, to the death, that paid the oprice for our sins.

And by the way----our SDA lawyers have represented Muslims, JW's, and Mormons in religious liberty cases. You can believe anything you want and I will defend your right to do so----I do not have to believe what you believe.

 

[Ironhold]

It's very simple,

Not really.

There are people who would consider that to be "works".

There are also people who would consider that to be someone else's business yet still regard themselves as Christian.

And so on.

 

[Rescued One]

The Bible teaches us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us in the garden. His blood that He shed for us in the garden washes away our sins.

Wrong! The Bible doesn't say that.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Philippians 3:18
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not really.

There are people who would consider that to be "works".

There are also people who would consider that to be someone else's business yet still regard themselves as Christian.

And so on.

I have no idea how this is a response to what I was saying in regard to the point of works. Of course works are works. Works, such as feeding our hungry neighbor, are what is required of us; the reason for which is simple--our neighbor is hungry, feed them.

So, yes really. It's that simple.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

Wrong! The Bible doesn't say that.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Philippians 3:18
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

True, it does not teach all that, but it does teach us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed in the garden. I believe it was the sin cleansing blood as part of the atonement made in our behalf.

 

[Rescued One]

True, it does not teach all that, but it does teach us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed in the garden. I believe it was the sin cleansing blood as part of the atonement made in our behalf.

I strongly disagree.

 

[He is the way]

I strongly disagree.

First He asked to have the cup removed, then an angel was sent to strengthen Him, then being in agony He bled from every pore. It is a series of events.