LDS LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

[drstevej]

No amount of work could or would earn grace. Grace can not be earned it is given as a gift to those who love God and keep His commandments:

Gift = a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

 

[Ironhold]

Gift = a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

Did you at any point take any law classes?

I ask as...

Consideration - Wikipedia ...

The court in Currie v Misa [1] declared consideration to be a “Right, Interest, Profit, Benefit, or Forbearance, Detriment, Loss, Responsibility”. Thus, consideration is a promise of something of value given by a promissor in exchange for something of value given by a promisee; and typically the thing of value is goods, money, or an act. Forbearance to act, such as an adult promising to refrain from smoking, is enforceable only if one is thereby surrendering a legal right.[2][3][4]

Even under "Once Saved, Always Saved" we're still looking at consideration.

 

[drstevej]

I did not take any law courses. How is belief a consideration?

 

[Peter1000]

The scriptures did not lead to the killing of our Savior. Pride, self-righteous Pharisee, love of power--all those lead to His death. It was a death that had to be, for even if the Jewish nation had accepted Jesus as the Messiah---HE HAD TO DIE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS! He did not, however, have to be so brutally tortured. The High Priest would have had to offer Him as the sacrificial Lamb---as Abraham would have, but this time, no hand would have stayed him.

You are right, the scriptures did not kill Jesus, but because of his radical words, the High Priesthood could not continue to let him live, he was so contrary to their traditions in the OT, and you would have condemned him because they did not match up with your bible (OT).

I don't really know how you would have reacted, but I know how stubborn you are in regards to: if JS says something and it does not agree 100% with the NT, he is a liar and a false prophet.

That attitude leads me to think you would have been very critical of Jesus when he said love your enemy, when the bible says an eye for an eye. When Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first, referring to Israel will be the last to be saved, and the gentiles will be the first, this had to be hard to here when their bible said they were the chosen people. I think you would have been very critical.

 

[He is the way]

Gift = a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

God chooses who He rewards:
(Old Testament | Exodus 33:19)

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 8:23)

23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 28:13)

13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

(New Testament | Romans 9:13 - 21)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Peter1000]

How absurd. Are you saying Peter, Paul, John, etc. were not Jews before following Jesus?

I was talking about mmksparbud, not Peter, Paul, and John. They were obviously Jews, and they obviously accepted Jesus as the Son of God.

 

[Peter1000]

Wouldn't the Jews know the name Yeshua ?

Would they? Tell me why?

 

[Ironhold]

I did not take any law courses. How is belief a consideration?

You're having to change your mindset and attitude, and must also self-identify as such even when it's not advantageous.

 

[Peter1000]

Don't Mormons teach that angel sent was Adam

Have never heard that before. Could be wrong, but I can't remember if I have ever heard that.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are right, the scriptures did not kill Jesus, but because of his radical words, the High Priesthood could not continue to let him live, he was so contrary to their traditions in the OT, and you would have condemned him because they did not match up with your bible (OT).

I don't really know how you would have reacted, but I know how stubborn you are in regards to: if JS says something and it does not agree 100% with the NT, he is a liar and a false prophet.

That attitude leads me to think you would have been very critical of Jesus when he said love your enemy, when the bible says an eye for an eye. When Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first, referring to Israel will be the last to be saved, and the gentiles will be the first, this had to be hard to here when their bible said they were the chosen people. I think you would have been very critical.

You are assuming I would have condemned Him---who knows, I might have---However, He was the fulfillment of the OT, as such, I just very well might have been one of those that saw that and followed Him---You nor I know what I would have done.
I would not have been critical at all about loving your enemy---since I am very scripturally bound, I would have been far more into Him aligning with the predictions about Him, since that seems, to me, what the determining factors would have been. Certainly, whatever doubts I might have had, would have disappeared with His resurrection. Not having been one of the "elite", such as the Pharisees and Rabbis---I would have had no position to regard above the fulfillment of the scriptures. Besides, how do you know --I might haver been best buds with Martha, Mary and Lazarus!

 

[mmksparbud]

You are right, the scriptures did not kill Jesus, but because of his radical words, the High Priesthood could not continue to let him live, he was so contrary to their traditions in the OT, and you would have condemned him because they did not match up with your bible (OT).

I don't really know how you would have reacted, but I know how stubborn you are in regards to: if JS says something and it does not agree 100% with the NT, he is a liar and a false prophet.

That attitude leads me to think you would have been very critical of Jesus when he said love your enemy, when the bible says an eye for an eye. When Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first, referring to Israel will be the last to be saved, and the gentiles will be the first, this had to be hard to here when their bible said they were the chosen people. I think you would have been very critical.

LOL! Man, you put me into a very strange place. I got to thinking just what would have been my life back then. Given the same circumstances of my life---I can guarantee you---if I would have been living back then and in that area where Mary, Martha and Lazarus were---which was very likely, I would have been best buds with Mary, not Martha. I would have seen what He did for her and want the same thing.
You see--her life and mine were very similar, mine would have been worse than hers. No----I would not have been critical of Jesus at all, I would have helped Mary buy that oil to anoint His feet and been peeking in the window cheering her on.

 

[Rescued One]

D&C 130: 21
And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

D&C 88
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, copyright 1981, Enrichment G, p. 395

President Brigham Young taught that “there is no being in all the eternities but what is governed by law” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 1). Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated, similarly, that Christ “governs and is governed by law” (Mormon Doctrine,p. 432.) God has said, for example, that He is bound when His children do what He says (see D&C 82:10). He is bound to fulfill His promises, for He is a being of complete integrity who conforms totally to the laws of righteousness. He is a celestial being and abides by celestial law, for any being “who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory” (D&C 88:22).
Ibid, p. 393

 

[Rescued One]

"Because God formed the world and He formed all things."
He spoke all things into being, then He formed--Psa_33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast

"God is able to make all of His sons Gods." "God offers exaltation to everyone."
Nah---He gives those that qualify their own planets---for which they have to die for their progenies sins all over again---that is no God--that's a little useless god.​

They have to form their own planets. I doubt if their wives do that work. If they help, they won't get credit.​

 

[Rescued One]

God chooses who He rewards:
(Old Testament | Exodus 33:19)

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 8:23)

23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 28:13)

13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

(New Testament | Romans 9:13 - 21)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Mormonism:

“Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? …Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.”
Alma 5:27-28, Book of Mormon


“This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 1969, p. 208-209

 

[Peter1000]

You are assuming I would have condemned Him---who knows, I might have---However, He was the fulfillment of the OT, as such, I just very well might have been one of those that saw that and followed Him---You nor I know what I would have done.
I would not have been critical at all about loving your enemy---since I am very scripturally bound, I would have been far more into Him aligning with the predictions about Him, since that seems, to me, what the determining factors would have been. Certainly, whatever doubts I might have had, would have disappeared with His resurrection. Not having been one of the "elite", such as the Pharisees and Rabbis---I would have had no position to regard above the fulfillment of the scriptures. Besides, how do you know --I might haver been best buds with Martha, Mary and Lazarus!

Jesus's radical religious sayings were very hard to hear sometimes, especially compared to the OT. Jesus did not give us a whole lot of predictions from the OT about himself. He did after he was resurrected to the men on the road. To them he went through the OT and showed them all the predictions that had come to pass.

I am being critical of you, but I could be just as critical about me. I hope that I would have seen his miracles and came to a conclusion through the Holy Spirit that he was the real Son of God. I believe you may have also, except for your strangle hold on past scriptures that was so different than the radical sayings of Jesus. He was the bread from heaven and you had to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to be saved. This was a hard saying, and many disciples left him at that point.

I hope I would have stayed and asked for a clarification and an interpretation of that saying and hearing what Jesus explain what he meant by that, I think I would have stayed. I would also have to get to the bottom of whether he was born in Galilee, or was he born in Bethlehem. Finding that he was born in Bethlehem as the scriptures testify, I would have followed him.

 

[He is the way]

Mormonism:

“Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? …Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.”
Alma 5:27-28, Book of Mormon


“This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 1969, p. 208-209

Is it hard to go against what is taught in the Bible?:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:15 - 16)

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:12)

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It does not look like this is a suggestion but rather a command. Those who LOVE Christ will strive to keep His commandments.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus's radical religious sayings were very hard to hear sometimes, especially compared to the OT. Jesus did not give us a whole lot of predictions from the OT about himself. He did after he was resurrected to the men on the road. To them he went through the OT and showed them all the predictions that had come to pass.

I am being critical of you, but I could be just as critical about me. I hope that I would have seen his miracles and came to a conclusion through the Holy Spirit that he was the real Son of God. I believe you may have also, except for your strangle hold on past scriptures that was so different than the radical sayings of Jesus. He was the bread from heaven and you had to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to be saved. This was a hard saying, and many disciples left him at that point.

I hope I would have stayed and asked for a clarification and an interpretation of that saying and hearing what Jesus explain what he meant by that, I think I would have stayed. I would also have to get to the bottom of whether he was born in Galilee, or was he born in Bethlehem. Finding that he was born in Bethlehem as the scriptures testify, I would have followed him.

Well, as I said in post#191---you made me think about some stuff. It depends on what time of my life I would be in. If I had been in my present condition---I would have gone to Him for healing--I'm in a wheelchair and in pain 24/7 and now a widow--no children. So no---if He had healed me---I wouldn't have cared what He said anymore than the others He healed did! Besides, He upheld the word, He quoted it all, the time, and I would have known the scriptures and that they pointed to everything they said about the coming Messiah. If it had been as a young woman--as I said--I would have been Mary's best friend! I would have had 3 children as abortion was not an option (by my dad, 1st one at 12 and all aborted.) and been a totally ostracized woman as no one would have known who the father was. I would have been living in shame and degradation just as Mary and watched as He healed Mary and thrown myself at His feet, also. He would have known my past and loved me and I would not have been critical of Him at all.

 

[He is the way]

Well, as I said in post#191---you made me think about some stuff. It depends on what time of my life I would be in. If I had been in my present condition---I would have gone to Him for healing--I'm in a wheelchair and in pain 24/7 and now a widow--no children. So no---if He had healed me---I wouldn't have cared what He said anymore than the others He healed did! Besides, He upheld the word, He quoted it all, the time, and I would have known the scriptures and that they pointed to everything they said about the coming Messiah. If it had been as a young woman--as I said--I would have been Mary's best friend! I would have had 3 children as abortion was not an option (by my dad, 1st one at 12 and all aborted.) and been a totally ostracized woman as no one would have known who the father was. I would have been living in shame and degradation just as Mary and watched as He healed Mary and thrown myself at His feet, also. He would have known my past and loved me and I would not have been critical of Him at all.

You have truly been through a lot. I feel bad that you have had such a hard life. I hope you are receiving the care that you need. I know that Jesus does know your past and that He does love you very much. Jesus knows the hardships that you have faced and the struggles you have overcome. God bless you.

 

[mmksparbud]

You have truly been through a lot. I feel bad that you have had such a hard life. I hope you are receiving the care that you need. I know that Jesus does know your past and that He does love you very much. Jesus knows the hardships that you have faced and the struggles you have overcome. God bless you.

Thank you. God healed me of my young past. He is helping me to cope with the situation I now face. Everyone has their heartaches---and body aches!

 

[Rescued One]

I LOVE Christ and, therefore, I left Mormonism. Jesus saved me not because of deeds I had done. Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:6
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

BE ye therefore perfect. It is not a commandment to become perfect. The only way to BE perfect is to have the righteousness of Christ imputed to yourself.

Philippians 1:6
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

I love God and others by His grace that is with me.