LDS LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

[Rescued One]

I agree. But LDS teach that recommend holding LDS are worthier than Presbyterians and Methodists and Catholics.

The gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the right to receive the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, is obtained only upon condition of faith in Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion, and the laying on of hands by authorized servants endowed with the Melchizedek Priesthood. It is a most precious gift available only to worthy members of the Lord’s Church...
As with all gifts, this gift must be received and accepted to be enjoyed. When priesthood hands were laid upon your head to confirm you a member of the Church, you heard the words, “Receive the Holy Ghost.” This did not mean that the Holy Ghost unconditionally became your constant companion. Scriptures warn us that the Spirit of the Lord will “not always strive with man.” When we are confirmed, we are given the right to the companionship of the Holy Ghost, but it is a right that we must continue to earn through obedience and worthiness. We cannot take this gift for granted.
LDS Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, The Unspeakable Gift, General Conference, April 2003;
The Unspeakable Gift - Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin
Ensign, The Unspeakable Gift, May 2003, p. 26-27
Book of Mormon Student Manual, 2009, Chapter 12, p. 96

Of course there are people who are not worthy to go to the temple, and therefore should not go to the temple. No one should go to the temple except those who are worthy, as the Lord has said, "who [have] overcome by faith," and are cleansed and are just and true. Then they can go to the temple. If they are unclean, if they lack the faith, they had better stay out until they get the faith and are clean.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 60

Some temple recommend questions, the answers to which would disqualify non-LDS:
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 

[Rescued One]

Other people have been tortured and killed.

For a sinner to be tortured and killed and have his blood shed will not pay for anyone's sins.

Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice for sins.

He took on himself the sins of the world in the garden.

That isn't true. Even the BoM disagrees:

1 Nephi 11:33.

 

[Rescued One]

When those of us who subscribe to the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith speak of "salvation by works" we aren't saying there are people who believe in works alone for their salvation; instead we are speaking of the idea that human effort acts in cooperation with God to accomplish our salvation. In other words synergism as opposed to monergism. The error the Evangelical Reformers believed which had crept into the West through Scholasticism was that God's grace acted as help for men to reach salvation; that God provided the power which men could take hold of, by exercising their will, by faith and acts of charity in order to remain in a state of grace. Grace made salvation possible and available, but it was up to the individual to cooperate with God's grace in order to maintain and ultimately attain salvation.

It is this underlying idea that human efforts bring something of merit to the table at all which is what is rejected by the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith. It doesn't matter if we are talking about large, complicated systems of penance and performance; or something smaller like "make a decision for Christ". All works, big or small, count as nothing. Because all human works, all human endeavors, all human action is tainted, corrupted, stained with sin. So that even the highest and noblest of human efforts are still nothing more than the wretched activities of a sinner.

And it's not even the works themselves that contribute nothing, it's the very inborn notion of somehow there being a righteousness based on the Law that we can attain that itself is a sinful obstacle. This is the Opinio Legis, the "Opinion of the Law", i.e. the opinion which says the Law can produce righteousness through human effort if one merely makes the effort. Whether minimal, whether how small.

All efforts are frustrated, for all human works are sinful. There is no one who is righteous, there is no one who does good, there is no one who seeks after God--not even one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death for all.

So when I hear, for example, an American Evangelical preacher talk about "the sinner's prayer", or "the altar call" or "asking Jesus into your heart", this is simply another example of works-based salvation. And I have the exact same criticism of it as I do of any other works-based salvation.

It's why I'm Lutheran and not <insert something else here>. As I can honestly say that I'm not Lutheran for the lutfisk. It is for the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

I am not Lutheran, have never been Lutheran, and do not believe we are saved by grace and works, do not believe in altar calls or sinner's prayers for salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you tempting me to boast by asking me, so I will say that He has?

"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." - Romans 3:27-28

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we boast in the hope of the glory of God." - Romans 5:1-2

"God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, 'Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" - 1 Corinthians 1:28-31

"But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." - Galatians 6:14

If you are boasting in your own power, strength, and works then absolutely that's a problem.

But to say, with confidence and faith, that you are forgiven because God has, in Christ, forgiven you of all your sins is not to boast in yourself, but to boast in the grace of God. For it is God who has accomplished this and not you. So your boast is not of your hubris, but of God's great mercy.

Not only is it not wrong to boast in the grace of God, we should boast in Christ. For such boasting is not for our glory, but for the glory of God who has done such great things. For Christ has won the victory, He is Lord, the Savior of all, and has made peace between you and God. That's the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am not Lutheran, have never been Lutheran, and do not believe we are saved by grace and works, do not believe in altar calls or sinner's prayers for salvation.

I'm not suggesting only Lutherans believe in the doctrine of Justification by grace alone; only that it's the reason why I'm Lutheran (and not, for example, Catholic or Orthodox).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rescued One]

I'm not suggesting only Lutherans believe in the doctrine of Justification by grace alone; only that it's the reason why I'm Lutheran (and not, for example, Catholic or Orthodox).

-CryptoLutheran

Oh, now I understand. Thank you.

 

[Ironhold]

When those of us who subscribe to the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith speak of "salvation by works" we aren't saying there are people who believe in works alone for their salvation; instead we are speaking of the idea that human effort acts in cooperation with God to accomplish our salvation.

The way we see it is "James 2 exists for a reason".

If you're going to claim Christ, then you need to be living as one of his followers.

It's a journey, not a destination, to borrow the cliche.

 

[He is the way]

No, He didn't. God the Father was with Him until the cross, it was at the moment that the skies became dark, that was when God the Father was forced to withdraw from Jesus for God can not look upon sin---that is why it was not until then that Jesus cried,
"Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Yes Jesus did cry My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, but that is not when He took upon Himself the sins of the world. He was in agony in the garden and bled from every pore. That is when He took upon Himself the sins of the world. He even needed the help of an angel to strengthen Him.

 

[Rescued One]

No, there was no sacrifice for sin in the garden. The Old Testament sacrifice foreshadowing that which was in the future, required the death of the animal being sacrificed.

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The way we see it is "James 2 exists for a reason".

If you're going to claim Christ, then you need to be living as one of his followers.

It's a journey, not a destination, to borrow the cliche.

And no one denies the importance of this. The question is not, "Ought we to do good works?" because such a question is ridiculous, Ephesians 2:10 is clear that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works.

So the question is never should we do good works; rather the question must be do good works make us righteous and earn us any favor, merit, or benefit from God? And the answer to that question must be a firm, sharp, and bold no.

So what's the point of good works if not to earn spiritual reward? It's very simple, your neighbor is hungry, feed them; your neighbor is thirsty, give them drink; your neighbor is naked, clothe them; your neighbor is sick; provide medical care for them; your neighbor is in prison, comfort them; your neighbor is an immigrant, welcome them. Provide justice for the poor and the hungry, the fatherless and the widow, for the weak and the downtrodden. Go to the dark places of the world and let your light shine before men.

"Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace: where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy.

O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen." - Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Christian Apologist]

Other people have been tortured and killed. He took on himself the sins of the world in the garden.

Where in The Book of Mormon or The Bible is that taught

 

[He is the way]

Where in The Book of Mormon or The Bible is that taught

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:7)

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

(New Testament | Luke 22:43 - 44)

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes Jesus did cry My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, but that is not when He took upon Himself the sins of the world. He was in agony in the garden and bled from every pore. That is when He took upon Himself the sins of the world. He even needed the help of an angel to strengthen Him.

Of course He did. The decision to go through with this was not easy, and Yes, it was huge agony--huge. But He did not take the sins of the world upon Him at that time. As with the sacrificial Lamb at the sanctuary, the sins of the congregation did not go on the Lamb until just before it was sacrificed, they were not placed on it outside somewhere. The sins were placed on the head of the Lamb, then it was killed---our sins were placed upon the Lamb, God withdrew His presence from Him, that is when the skies grew dark , Jesus cried out then (not at the garden, the angels of God were sent to strengthen Him, God was still with Him then) and then He died. At the cross was His sacrfice for out sins---He did not die in the garden---the price for sin is death and that is what He paid at the cross.

 

[He is the way]

Of course He did. The decision to go through with this was not easy, and Yes, it was huge agony--huge. But He did not take the sins of the world upon Him at that time. As with the sacrificial Lamb at the sanctuary, the sins of the congregation did not go on the Lamb until just before it was sacrificed, they were not placed on it outside somewhere. The sins were placed on the head of the Lamb, then it was killed---our sins were placed upon the Lamb, God withdrew His presence from Him, that is when the skies grew dark , Jesus cried out then (not at the garden, the angels of God were sent to strengthen Him, God was still with Him then) and then He died. At the cross was His sacrfice for out sins---He did not die in the garden---the price for sin is death and that is what He paid at the cross.

The Bible teaches us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us in the garden. His blood that He shed for us in the garden washes away our sins.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Bible teaches us of the agony and the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us in the garden. His blood that He shed for us in the garden washes away our sins.

What part of the price of sin is death did JS not understand? His blood was literally shed and He died at the cross. Bleeding from every pore shows agony---but does not pay the price of Sin!! Only death can do that. The sacrificial Lamb was not bled until it almost died---it was totally drained of blood till it died. That is what the bible teaches.

 

[He is the way]

What part of the price of sin is death did JS not understand? His bled was literally shed and He died at the cross. Bleeding from every pore shows agony---but does not pay the price of Sin!! Only death can do that. The sacrificial Lamb was not bled until it almost died---it was totally drained of blood till it died. |That is what the bible teaches.

We could go on and on about the agony and the blood Jesus spilt in the garden and His suffering and death on the cross. I believe that both of these are important parts of the atonement and suffering that Jesus did in our behalf. I will be eternally grateful for the sacrifice that Jesus made for us.

 

[Christian Apologist]

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:7)

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

(New Testament | Luke 22:43 - 44)

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I asked where does the Bible or Book of Mormon teach Jesus took on the sins of the world in the Garden, not that he didn't suffer

 

[He is the way]

I asked where does the Bible or Book of Mormon teach Jesus took on the sins of the world in the Garden, not that he didn't suffer

There was a reason He bled and suffered in the garden, it was not for nothing.

 

[mmksparbud]

We could go on and on about the agony and the blood Jesus spilt in the garden and His suffering and death on the cross. I believe that both of these are important parts of the atonement and suffering that Jesus did in our behalf. I will be eternally grateful for the sacrifice that Jesus made for us.

JS never taught the true and awesome God we serve! Why do you prefer a god such as he portrays instead of the great God of the bible?? Why choose a god that can not create from nothing when there is one that does? Why choose a god that can not produce children that are the same substance as he, when there is one that has a One and Only Son that is? Why choose a god that only offers exaltation to a few, when there is a God that offers real salvation in a heaven in His presence for all? Why choose a god that needed the fall in order for us to have children, when there is the true God that created us to have children and gave us the privilege of doing so whether we had fallen or not--no help from Satan needed? Why choose to believe in a god that could not protect his word from Destruction when there is a God that did? Why choose a god that produces some sort of spirit children with some sort of heavenly mother and then has to have those children become human when the true God needed no such being and never produced but one child of His own substance but loves us enough to adopt as His own and He gave Adam and Eve the power to create themselves through their children down through the ages? Why believe in such an ineffectual weak god, when it is a lie and the real God is so much superior?
Is your wish for power through being the god of your own planet so great that it overrides the magnitude of the real blessings the True God offers? Is your need of being your own god so great that you would rather have a god you can walk up to, look in the eye and shake his hand that you can not see the Majestic, One and Only, True God so magnificent that you will fall on your knees in worship?
This remade earth is going to be our home and Jesus will be our temple and the One and only God of this entire universe will be the God of all the saved! Why choose something so little and doesn't exist, over One so Great who does?
Why believe in a son of god that came here and achieved greatness by keeping the commandments over a Son of the One and Only God who was of the same substance as the One and Only God of the Universe and was a partaker of a great, divine and Holy estate, who created everything and had billions of angels at His command and yet, He gave all that up to come down here and be one of us in order to save us by paying the price for our sins, having lived a holy and pure life to show us that through the same power of His Father, so can we? The price He paid was far beyond the agony and death He suffered on earth---He retains His humanity and His scars for eternity! They are what will keep sin from rising a 2nd time! The true God has a Son who paid once for all---no one ever need die again to save anyone else! Sin will be gone forever---not live on and on in other worlds that other gods have to save!

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Why not believe in the real God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and His real salvation and gifts, not just for this earth, but for all His creation?

 

[mmksparbud]

There was a reason He bled and suffered in the garden, it was not for nothing.

Of course not! It was the expression of His intense debate within Himself about having to go to the cross! Of having to endure so much for us---it was an intense struggle! And who, in their right mind would be happy about it? Crucifixion was known, He knew what it entailed. Of course He suffered and agonized over such a decision! I'D OF GONE HOME!