OSAS....= is Grace

ace of hearts

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Wrong. Believing unto salvation means have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31 etc..). Obedience which "follows" is works. I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is based on the merits of our works/obedience which "follows" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means - "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
This is a reason I stick with one version. I noticed long time ago these newer version alter the truth and don't agree with themselves in many cases. I've read the KJV until it is part of me. For a time I was even speaking KJ English.
 
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Neogaia777

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I don't want it to be up to me, and I don't want the or any credit at all for it either, even if it was anyway, either... What is worth really if it is us or "our own doing" anyway...? That's just the way I see it, filthy rags to me... It's nothing, and it will be burnt up also I believe, or anyway, if it is or was us in any way, ect...

If it's a "reward", then it is something we earn or gain for ourselves, ect, right...? Instead of free "award" instead, and not earned by you, but another...

God Bless!
 
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JLB777

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There are 3 tenses to salvation that should not be confused:
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.


If you have faith in Christ for the salvation of your soul then you have the hope of salvation to come when Jesus returns.


Faith is the substance of the thing you hope for...


Each of us will stand before our Lord on that Day, to be Judged according to our deeds


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


He will render to each of us according to our deeds.



God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath




JLB
 
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JLB777

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It it really...? Really up to "us" ect...?


We can choose to live our lives according to the power of His righteous life within us.

Or

We can choose to live our life according to the sinful desires of our flesh.



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14


  • if you live according to the flesh you will die;
  • but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Each born again believer is responsible for the life of Jesus Christ, he or she has been given.


We can either invest our time towards the things that gratify the flesh, or we can invest our time towards the things that enrich our spiritual life.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8



  • he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
  • but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17) Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him unto salvation. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone (and not in works) to save you. (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31) This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. To believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith is works.


If a person does not obey the Lord Jesus, is that trusting Him?





JLB
 
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JLB777

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All of us, even including you...?


Especially me.


However, I am responsible to walk in the truth, that the Lord has shown to me.


To whom much is given much is expected.


We don’t require much from a baby, but a young man is expected to obey.


The prodigal son made a choice to leave the father, just as he made the choice to return.


Lost means lost.


The lost must repent and turn back to God or die in their sins and perish.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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I don't want it to be up to me, and I don't want the or any credit at all for it either, even if it was anyway, either... What is worth really if it is us or "our own doing" anyway...? That's just the way I see it, filthy rags to me... It's nothing, and it will be burnt up also I believe, or anyway, if it is or was us in any way, ect...

If it's a "reward", then it is something we earn or gain for ourselves, ect, right...? Instead of free "award" instead, and not earned by you, but another...

God Bless!


I understand.


Here’s some advice from Peter -


Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4


  • His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness,


You have been given what you need to live a godly life and in the end to inherit eternal life.


Here is what is expected of each person.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11



  • giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.


The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and Comforter is this walk of faith, and He will lead and guide you into all truth.

Spend time alone seeking the Lord in these things and you will see amazing things...


Develop godly habits, and invest your time towards the things of the Spirit, rather than the things of the flesh, and you will grow strong in Him.



JLB
 
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Neogaia777

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Especially me.


However, I am responsible to walk in the truth, that the Lord has shown to me.


To whom much is given much is expected.


We don’t require much from a baby, but a young man is expected to obey.


The prodigal son made a choice to leave the father, just as he made the choice to return.


Lost means lost.


The lost must repent and turn back to God or die in their sins and perish.

JLB

What if that (last part) is impossible...?

And the whole choice issue I think is dependent upon ones point of view...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What do you mean by credit?


JLB
You will get something from God for something you did, or some things you did, or earn something from Him, by your own self-will and effort, ect... Or "choice" or "choices", maybe a series of them, ect...

And are they really your choices to begin with, is a whole other issue... Also highly dependent upon ones point of view... God's either "Sovereign" and has been from the very beginning, up to now, and even past now, ect, or else He's not... And there is no wiggle room or middle ground here either, not on this one...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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We can choose to live our lives according to the power of His righteous life within us.

Or

We can choose to live our life according to the sinful desires of our flesh.



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14


  • if you live according to the flesh you will die;
  • but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Each born again believer is responsible for the life of Jesus Christ, he or she has been given.


We can either invest our time towards the things that gratify the flesh, or we can invest our time towards the things that enrich our spiritual life.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8



  • he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
  • but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.



JLB
Are we responsible for our lives or ourselves or the course of our lives here in this world, or is God responsible for it or them...? Is He and has He always been "omniscient" or all-knowing, from the beginning (to now and beyond now, ect)...? And where is "choice" in that...?

God Bless!
 
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Danthemailman

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If you have faith in Christ for the salvation of your soul then you have the hope of salvation to come when Jesus returns.

Faith is the substance of the thing you hope for...
Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Each of us will stand before our Lord on that Day, to be Judged according to our deeds

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11
For believers, this will determine rewards and loss of rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

He will render to each of us according to our deeds.
  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
You must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical that you keep in mind these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 
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Danthemailman

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If a person does not obey the Lord Jesus, is that trusting Him?

JLB
Obeying the Lord Jesus is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers. So unbelievers do not obey the Lord Jesus no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23) If a person does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ/believe the gospel, (Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16) is that trusting Him?
 
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JLB777

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What if that (last part) is impossible...?

And the whole choice issue I think is dependent upon ones point of view...

God Bless!


James will answer:


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,

  • he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death



JLB
 
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JLB777

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You will get something from God for something you did, or some things you did, or earn something from Him, by your own self-will and effort, ect... Or "choice" or "choices", maybe a series of them, ect...

And are they really your choices to begin with, is a whole other issue... Also highly dependent upon ones point of view... God's either "Sovereign" and has been from the very beginning, up to now, and even past now, ect, or else He's not... And there is no wiggle room or middle ground here either, not on this one...

God Bless!


Not our own self will, but obediently yielding to the working of His Spirit within us.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain.


Hope still means hope.


We still hope for what we do not yet have.


Paul explains using the language of faith.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25




JLB
 
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JLB777

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Obeying the Lord Jesus is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers.


Yes. Thanks for making my point.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those (believers) who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

  • but to those (believers) who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
 
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Danthemailman

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Yes. Thanks for making my point.
Actually, I did not make your point.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
  • eternal life to those (believers) who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  • but to those (believers) who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
but to those (unbelievers) who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. *I fixed it for you. *The latter is descriptive of unbelievers, not believers.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). - descriptive of believers.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). - descriptive of unbelievers.
 
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Hope still means hope.

We still hope for what we do not yet have.

Paul explains using the language of faith.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

JLB
We wait for it in expectation of what is sure (certain). - Strong's #1680 elpís. Not in uncertain hope with fingers crossed, like I hope I get a promotion at work.
 
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